Hey... I don't mean to be a nitpicker or anything, but the link you have in my entry goes straight to my site. The direct link to "Sex Tapes As Marketing, Part 1 of 3", is http://multiplementality.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2005/01/21/53/.

Otherwise, a quite fulsome Carnival.

"... wimpy agnostics ..."

Them's fightin' words, bub. Put up yer dukes.

So much info... so many links! Blog overload! ::short circuit::

Seriously though, whats up with Sam Harris? He was waaaaay toooo nice to Dennis. Its like he agreed with him before the show "okay this is your show Dennis so Ill keep the kid gloves on and in return you plug my book."

I coulda given Dennis a much more interesting interview myself, but then again I dont have a book to sell.

why does everyone take carlin so damn seriously?

he's a fucking comedian!

Ehh, just a mess of opinions, this is nice for spreading links, etc, but not good for reading.

Great job on the Carnival this week.

hey, stu, since when did eviscerated children become funny?

probably right around the time when spelling ashley with an 'i' became stupid cutesy bullshit.

Why do people always seem to try to score points by being more of an asshole that their opponents? By that measure, I'm having trouble telling who's winning.

Maybe we all need to stop taking things so seriously.

Okay, we do all need to stop takings things so seriously. Especially the abortion issue, which no longer has anything but twisted emotional rhetoric coming from either side. And yes, RA, that goes for you too.

norbiznes Rules!!!

LOL!

ashli said:
"hey, stu, since when did eviscerated children become funny?"

Hey ashli, why'd you steal a pic of my wife and say its you? 8O

And the next time I see a 2 trimester foetus sit up and read Winnie the Pooh or do the 10s times tables is the next time I'll consider one a "child." Silly pretty nutter...

BTW, norbiznes Rules!!! LOL!

MBains:

I'm not taking Ashli's side, but I did follow her links and they are disturbing in the extreme. My rationalizations for supporting abortion don't seem so clear. I'm moved by my emotional connection to my daughter and I know that I conflate my feelings seeing her for the first time in an ultrasound (at only 16 weeks) with pictures of these dismembered "2-trimester fetuses".

Those ulsrasound pictures look exactly like my daughter did. And last night she "read" me a book in her inimitable 18-month-old style.

This whole issue just got a lot more confusing for me.

On her site, Ashli claims that the Dems make it impossible for her to vote for them because of their support for abortion. I wonder if pictures of cluster-bombed Iraqi children would cause the same cognitive dissonance for her as pictures of aborted 'fetuses' do for me. Not that the Dems never bombed anyone, but coming face to face with the magnitude of deliberately-caused human suffering in this world, at both ends of the continuum blurs just about every "distinct" line.

Great post and I like your web log. I will continue reading and blogroll you.

Ashli - I'm with stu on this one. Calling a comedian on indulging in stereotypes is hardly a great intellectual achievement. Are all pro-lifers unattractive, loud, angry hypocrites? Probably not, but some of them are, and they deserve to be made fun of. Anyway, I look forward to you tackling the tough subjects of whether all airline food really is bad, or whether all white people really can't dance.

"I wonder if pictures of cluster-bombed Iraqi children would cause the same cognitive dissonance for her as pictures of aborted 'fetuses' do for me."

Excellent point; and one for which I'd like to hear her reply.

My parents left those aborted foetus pics on the piano for us to find. Nice... I was 12 and pissed that they'd do such a thing. I didn't even know what abortion was yet but found out by reading the "literature" (propaganda is such a loaded word, I defer using it except clinically.) This all happened at a time in my life when I was considered what it would mean to become a priest. I also was enraged and stupefied that "they" could have crucified Jesus when he was Such a Good man! It wasn't much later that I also learned about the Holocaust and that "they" were the victims of it. Of course for me "they" included the man whom I'd always considered my only Grandpa. He was one of the greatest people I've ever known and was anything but an orthodox Jew. I think he was my first clue that xtianity, and its tenets, were NOT Universal Law.

That's a lot of emotional trauma for such a young person. That, and my fears that I was gay (long story - not gay LOL!) gave me ulcers before 8th grade. They went away when I started playing HS football and wasn't embarrassed or aroused in the showers. That (football) ended when I started smoking pot. THAT didn't end until I had learned all that I could about 1) Christianity; 2) other world religions (started with Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism then moved on to paganism & wicca and Ended my search for and belief in ANY kind of gods with some Clean Thinking (ie, I'd quit pot by the time I was 21) about the New Age movement in the late 80's. More nutters! LOL! But fun stuff for the most part. I still wear the patchouli oil I fell in love with back then.

The point of my li'l personal history lesson is to show that I've come to grips with the emotional value of knowledge. There is none. I still FEEL as much, if not more, than anyone. I still DO make emotionally based decision on the spur of the moment. I hate when I do so because I KNOW better. I LOVE and support people in general and my Family (wife, step-child, brothers sisters...) incredibly. They are part of the Meaning of MY Life.

Last bit of history. When I was 17 and my "first" was 15, she scheduled an abortion. We'd planned on "moving to Arizona" where she had friends if she got pregnant, but the mom of a good friend, who was herself my/our friend, accepted my girl's request for assistance and we all drove to C-town where she had the abortion. There is NO Doubt in me that this was the Very Best Thing for Everyone. The FOETUS knew nothing of it. I certainly FELT terrible for a while as I imagined what might have been in an impossibly Rosy scenario of us living in Arizona. LOL! uhhh... Those fantasies didn't take long to fade, I can assure you all.

As I've indicated, if a foetus ever comes out of the womb talking and joking and reading and hypothesizing, (not just 3 or 6 months early but after the full 9 months,) I'll eat a cigar and protest every woman's right to choose aborting her pregancy until a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting that procedure is passed.

Until that day Schemanista, I'd just say that you were Emminently Ready to be a daddy. Your feelings on the matter, nor anyone else's, change whose right it is to decide whether a woman carries a foetus full-term. There is No Rational Logic to the "pro-life" argument. None that holds up to the full debate on Rights vs Religious Morality.

Thanks for the forum TRA.

mbains-

you rock. good post!

Keep this abortion talk up and I'm going to have to make a return appearance, and expose you all for the sperm-murdering hypocrits you are!

And trust me.

Nobody wants that.

Great job on the Carnival. It looks like it was a whole lotta work!
Thanks.

"Eric the Heretical Pagan Christian Apostate (with issues) of Classical Values", gets my THANKS for an informative piece about a topic I've often pondered. Aren't the Palestinians Israelis??? Well, yes, if they wanted to be. I kinda think even the most Liberal US government would have a problem with me and mine saying we aren't Americans whilst we be living in Ohio which is, duh, part of the USA. I know its not THAT simple. I also know the Palenstinian Liberation movement is all about separatism and Religion/Ideology and, therefore, responsible for the majority of the conflict.

That last bit being said, I ain't no Zionist! \: No more than I'm an Illuminatus or even a Mason! LOL! I'm a Socialist Capitalist Neo-Liberal Progressive who thinks Rational Thought and NOT Nationalism or Emotional Appeals to MYTH should be what the Laws of People are based upon.

THAT being said, I just thought Eric should have included this link http://web.tiscali.it/elena_gianotti/israel/1999.html on his site. Gotta Love that Google!

;)

Goddamn, if killing sperm gets redefined as murder, I'm was a regular Pol Pot and Hitler all rolled into one during my teenage and college years.

~DS~:

Please stop invoking He-Who-Cannot-Be-Named.

Seriously.

"Please stop invoking He-Who-Cannot-Be-Named."

Ed Sullivan???

Sorry Schem... I just never liked Ed.

mbains, no offense, but that's me and no way am i married to you.

stu, are you a comedian? because you've got to be kidding me with the "i" in "ashli" thing.

don't EVEN moralize to me about iraqi children killed in war. yes, i'm appalled. it's horrendous! but the fact is, with approximately 4,500 american children being legally killed each day right here, there is a bigger atrocity coming from the side the democrats support. if 10 kids were drowning because of republicans and 100 kids were drowning because of democrats i'd have to vote republican. it's common sense.

it's obvious that some of you have never taken a basic foreign policy class, but really, didn't you HAVE to take biology to graduate from high school? surely you understand enough about genetics to know that a sperm does not have 23 pairs of chromosomes and therefore is not human. i explained this on the blog during the carlin retort. yes, he's a comedian, but he seriously holds the flawed abortion-supporting beliefs that so many of you cling to so humorlessly.

"There is No Rational Logic to the "pro-life" argument. None that holds up to the full debate on Rights vs Religious Morality."
that's ridiculous. first, that religious people happen to oppose abortion does not make abortion a religious issue. Christians oppose rape. you probably oppose rape too, does that mean you are a Christian? or do Christian beliefs just sometimes overlap with secular ethics/values? so dispense with the "abortion is a religious issue," argument because it's lame. now, in a "pro-choice" v. "pro-life" head to head, ALL the logic is on our side. NONE is on the abortion advocating side. there's nothing just, ethical or evolved about killing people, particularly children, for the mere fact that there are problems and others aren't ready to deal with them. hello, that pretty much describes life in general. solving very real problems by killing children is completely illogical. caring about the woman and not the child is in no way in support of equal rights. caring about them equally is equal. one person's right to swing their aspirating curette ends where another person's nose begins. basic.

lastly, my 8-month-old can't read winnie the pooh or count by tens or hypothesize but i can't legally kill her. to those who brought up this topic of devaluing people who are differently abled... it isn't very "liberal" of you.

schemanista, i know you're not taking my side, but i did want to thank you for reading and following the links. thanks for thinking and researching. question abortion. the truth is out there.

Ahsli sure is fuckable, but you don't fall under the 'most pro-lifers' clause of that dude.

I'm struck by the similarity between Ashli's arguments and those of the ethical treatment of animals people. Their argument runs something like this:

I have a pet rat. I love my rat as much as anyone might a cat or dog. My rat feels pain. It can also learn.

Therefor, killing rats is wrong. If killing rats is wrong, killing cows/chickens/other animals is also wrong.

Of course, I have great respect for vegans. It's a difficult lifestyle, in a nation which condones the violent killing of BILLIONS of animals per year for food. It's hard to find a decent variety of things you can eat outside of co-ops. I know; I'm one myself(though the driving force here is my partner, not me. I can't do them all).

Unlike most of PETA's membership, however, I still see a distinction between humans and animals. We're human. I protest the vile conditions of corporate farms, but I would still rather see an animal die than a human.

I'm not going to suggest that a fetus is sub-human. But there is still a major distinction between a fetus and a baby that people like to ignore; a fetus cannot exist without the resources provided by its mother's body. A baby can survive with the proper care from anyone.

Try as you like, I will not share my body without anyone without my permission. I'm not concerned with legality, but only with my own happiness, or that of my partner. If the chance came, I might decide against an abortion, but I value the choice regardless.

I'm not sure if you have an abortion to regret or not, Ashli, but an unwanted pregnancy is a horrible experience. I've had very close friends in that situation. My partner and I escorted her into the clinic, past an element of the pro-life movement that you desperately need to distance yourself from(mostly men, I thought, but I have a personal bias here), and past women like you. I would have supported her whatever choice she made--and I did. She needed it.

I'd love to see a world where abortion is unnecessary, because no one gets pregnant if they don't want to(or even better, grow the kids in jars), but until then, I can only place priority on my friends--and all those women who might have been my friends, had we chanced to meet.

As a note to end on, though it probably isn't really important, I've no interest in sleeping with you, Ashli, despite me being a lesbian. I've always had a tendency to measure attractiveness by action and opinion, rather than appearance, and if there's anything I despise, it is a person who feels they can balance one injustice with another. One dead? A thousand? How much value do you put on each life? I call them infinite, and believe that two thousand deaths is worse than two only in that the killing was allowed to continue; people like you I hold as guilty as those holding the gun.

Go ahead and call me a hypocrite. But I believe that the rights of a woman override those of a fetus, because it is she who must work to survive, just like you believe the fetus' right to life supersedes any rights of the woman. The difference here is what we value more.

Ok, I gave you all a fair warning.

"4,500 (fetuses) being legally killed each day right here"

A small drop in the bucket (if you will forgive the use of the expression) compared to the number of sperms pointlessly killed by a single act of unreproductive ejaculation.

It is the work of anti-abortion sperm-haters like you, Ashli, that dirverts the righteous moral outrage from the mass murdering of sperms to the comparatively sporadic and infrequent terminations of fetuses. If we're talking numbers here, why aren't you standing up for the rights of sperm? What are you doing for the billions of sperm that are murdered each day? Why are you wasting time with fetuses when there are so many many MANY more sperms that are murdered? Just do the math and you'll see that my morality is the best morality.

Sperm deserve equal rights too, you callous, immoral bitch!

You were a sperm once. We all were. Think about that next time you spit or swallow -- murderer.

As to your crazy argument about sperms not being human. life, what sort of life are they? Chimpanzee? Elephant? Koala?

Of course not. Sperm are human. They aren't some alien form of life. You can justify your sperm murdering ways however you want, but that sounds awfully similar to me about how people justify "undeveloped fetuses" as not really human in the same we you and I are.

But we both know that fetuses are human, no matter what they say. Just like we both know that sperms are human.

You make me sick, Ashli, on so many levels. Someday my higher morality will be law, and you will be forced to recognize the basic facts of biology and law. Sperms are as human as you or I and deserve to be protected by the same laws.

To deny that is to reveal yourself as the lover of Death that you are!

"if 10 kids were drowning because of republicans and 100 kids were drowning because of democrats i'd have to vote republican. it's common sense."

No shit? Sounds more like insanity to me. Like choosing the least competent serial killer. A strange sort of moral calculus. Very very strange when one considers that in the most recent elections there were many choices other than Democrats and Republicans. Oh, but you probably imagine yourself as steely eyed and practical, since none of those other candidates could "win." A strange kind of morality indeed.

viole, humans are more important than animals. we agree. but using an innocent child's vulnerability and dependence as justification for her extermination is unevolved, unethical and just plain base.

"I'm not concerned with legality, but only with my own happiness... "

well then you can understand the mindset of the slave owner, of rapists and of many serial killers. they too are only concerned with their own happiness. something to brag about.

"I'm not sure if you have an abortion..."

well perhaps if you actually went to and perused the link on which you are commenting you could make that determination. but there you have it... the total uniqueness of a person blowing their comment wad on something they care enough to yell about but not enough to actually research. as a lesbian, you might be interested in the posts on the subject of homosexuality and abortion. people have already said they'd abort if their child was found to posess the "fat gene". what do you think will happen to all the little rosie o'donells here in the south when scientists find the gay gene? you might want to check out PLAGAL.

"if there's anything I despise, it is a person who feels they can balance one injustice with another."

what, like say... abortion for rape?

"One dead? A thousand? How much value do you put on each life? I call them infinite, and believe that two thousand deaths is worse than two only in that the killing was allowed to continue..."

you're kidding me, right? you hold these beliefs AND you support abortion? do you give fruitcake to people you LIKE? cuz it makes about as much sense.

"I believe that the rights of a woman override those of a fetus, because it is she who must work to survive"

then let's kill our two-year-olds when they are inconvenient because it is we who have to work to feed and house them and giving them up for adoption would just be... too painful.

"just like you believe the fetus' right to life supersedes any rights of the woman."

unlike you i don't choose one over the other. they are both equally important as they are both equally alive and equally human. and unlike so many on this thread, i don't use a person's ability or lack thereof to discriminate against them. women and children both have rights (see: declaration of independence) and the rights of one person to live as they wish do not trump the right of another person to live at all. many of us... parents, boyfriends, etc., have the ability to care for and support both mother and child, but many find that it is just "easier" to dump them both off at the friendly local abortion facility.

women AND children deserve better than that kind of abandonment, and i am shocked that a woman-loving lesbian would support something that violates, exploits and hurts women so much. shudder.

sperm defender...
settle down, bevis. they make thorazine for folks like you. take some.

i apologize for not being more clear. human sperm, though originating from a human, are not individual people. they are sex cells. zygotes are individual people with the full genetic material to back it up.

hermesten, during the last election i realized i could make a statement or i could make a difference. i decided upon the latter.

heeeeey, gang! it's getting a little silly in here. lots of arguments but i think we're past the point of anyone really wanting to explore anything.

that being said, i'll check back when and if i get the chance, but i'll not make it a priority, cuz i'm a little busy these days. so if you don't hear from me again, all i can say is i offered you the red pill...

all the best.

After the rude and insensitive treatment I received last time I tried to post here, I promised never to come back to this site again. I can not think of anything that so exemplifies the Culture of Death than the kind of hateful ignorance propagated at this site. But after seeing my compatriot Sperm Defender ignored by everyone, I feel that the cause of the sperm will never even be considered unless people like me, people who have no wish to face the ridicule and scorn of the Culture of Death crowd, are willing to get on the soapbox and let everyone else know just how wrong their opinions are, then nothing is ever going to change for the better.

So, first off, let me express a gentle criticism towards my good friend and fellow fighter-of-the-good-fight Sperm Defender. I can understand your anger towards Ashli and others of her ilk who pretend to be sensitive towards human life and pretend to care about the welfare of others while at the same time glibly supporting the Culture-of-Death/Sperm-Homicide crowd that not only participates in the mass murder of millions of human beings out there (and, please, let's not play the semantics game here of pretending the sperms are not real humans, they're only potential-humans or not-yet-humans, as we all know that's a rationalization for the horrific acts of murder happening all of the time that the Culture of Death crowd would prefer to pretend is something other than it really is). But, Sperm Defender, I think the approach to take with people like Ashli is not to berate them, not to call them names. The approach to take is to embrace them, to love them, to try to bring them into our fold as fellow sperm-lovers. Take a "glass is half-full" approach. For though Ashli may not yet recognize the injustice of the mass homicide of millions, nay billions, of humans that occur every year, she is at least not part of that crowd who thinks that life is some magical thing that begins once someone is outside the womb.

In the spirit of recognizing Ashli not as a sperm-hater, but as a potential Sperm-lover, a potential Sperm Defender, let me start off by quoting the Oxford English Dictionary definition of life: " Animate existence (esp. that of a human being) viewed as a possession of which one is deprived by death, esp. in to lose, save, lay down one's life, and similar expressions." Animate existence, that can only be ended by death. Is a sperm animate? The answer, I think even my 4-year-old nephew can answer, is yes. And as my friend and compatriot Sperm Defender pointed out, if we admit that a sperm is life, then we must admit that it is human life, because what other life can it be? Monkey life? Bacteria life? Martian life? It is at this point that sperm-haters have to admit the illogicallity of their position. And what is the only way to end the condition of life? According to the OED, it is by death. Do sperm choose to be killed by condoms? Do they choose to be killed by spermicides? Do they choose to be killed by masturbation? NO, NO and NO. And if a human being is killed by the actions of another, we have a word for that - MURDER. So, Ashli, I ask you, to join myself and Sperm Defender in calling out all of the Masturbationists, all of the Condom-lovers out there, all of the Homicide-by-birth-control crowd out there, and call them what they are - COLD BLOODED KILLERS. MURDERERS!!!! You know who you are! If we don't speak out about it now, then millions and millions of sperm, millions and millions of fellow humans, our brothers and sisters, will be killed today, and millions and millions more will be killed tomorrow and the next day. We- You, Ashli, and me, and Sperm Defender, and all of the other logical, sensitive, people reading this, who refuse to be cowed by the deceptions and misdirections and outright lies of RA and his Culture of Death crowd- we have to stand out and speak out and say it loud and proud- THE MURDER OF SPERM is wrong.

And for all of those comedians, those people who think it's funny to joke about masturbation and condoms and how the killing of sperm is OK just because people may laugh at their little jokes, I say it is you and the people who laugh at you who are the real jokes. You and your very existence are jokes. And if you say that all of us pro-sperm people are just ugly hypocrites, I refer you to these pictures of me, and you'll see just how wrong you are.

bah. the inconsistancy of armchair philosophers never ceases to amaze me.. we have yet to find out what might flourish from a good healthy melanoma because we squeltch its very existance with radiation and surgery. the horror!

you, (you so-called 'defenders'), need to make the final leap and join us! we are the true defenders of human life, and all that arises from human life!

I'm sorry, Former Sperm, but it engrages me that cold hearted murderous sperm-abortionists like Ashli are spreading misinformation about the nature of human life.

It is convenient for sperm-abortionists to determine that human life begins with the combination of the genetic material from both the sperm and the egg. Just as it is convenient for fetus-abortionists to draw some other arbitrary and imaginary line in the cycle of life to justify their murder.

As Ashli knows, all human life is equally valuable. Men and women. Sperms and eggs. Fetuses. Infants. Children. She rightly interchanges these terms to make her point. Just as it is fair to refer to fetuses as children, so too it can be said that sperms are children.

And in face of my justified moral outrage, she mocks me. She says that I need medication. She calls me the name of a mildly retarded pop-culture icon.

She clearly thinks that the deaths of billions upon billions of sperm is a laughing matter, and that is the saddest thing of all. I am glad to expose her as the heartless murderer that she is, and I am also glad to correct the misinformation that she and her fellow sperm-abortion supporters spread.

It is my moral duty to share the truth with all of you. And it is my moral duty to impose my morality on you with the force of law.

Whether you like it or not.

"hermesten, during the last election i realized i could make a statement or i could make a difference. i decided upon the latter."

Ya see, I knew your response would be a riff on your steely eyed practicality. But really, you're just spouting nonsense on the order of "our troops are in --fill in the blank-- fighting for our freedom." It might make a nice feel-good soundbite for the Fox "news" crowd but it's still a load of crap. The fact is you didn't vote on principle, you just voted for your tribe. It may be a comforting rationalization, and it may feel good to belong to the tribe, but it's just an easy choice, not a moral choice.

Slave owners, in fact, have always been terribly concerned about legality. Without cooperation from government, holding slaves is next to impossible. You'll find that slavery ended in Britain, the United States of America, and many former Spanish colonies in South America when slavery became illegal under national law. Abject poverty has continued for many, and the relationships of production have changed little, but it isn't slavery.

Slavers were very much concerned about legality. It would even be a stretch to say they didn't care about morality, because they considered slaves to be subhuman. In fact, one of the pro-slavery arguments of the day went something like this;

A slave owner has a moral obligation to care for his slaves; provide them with food and shelter, and generally keep them healthy enough to work.

The capitalist merely pays his labor and leaves them to fend for themselves.

Therefor, slavery is more humane than capitalism.

Of course, this is complete garbage, but it illustrates my point.

Now, did I not read any of your posts? About as much as I could handle without beating my head against the wall, which is painful. This is why I suspect that you'd had an abortion.

I do not, of course, support genetic engineering or genetic profiling of any kind. Perhaps if I thought it would be applied on an equitable basis to all people regardless of wealth or race, but I don't. A permanent lower class based upon something more substantial than skin color would be the end of both capitalism and democracy; they're clearly struggling already. In your suggested scenario, however, the breed of fundamentalists you speak of are mostly in the pro-life crowd already, and the ones that aren't are probably against 'playing god' anyway. People who hate gays for entirely secular reasons are in the minority. Regardless of any of this, I would prefer that a 'gay gene' not exist, which seems to be a fools hope.

Next point; you've never had a good fruitcake, have you? Bad fruitcakes are, indeed, awful, but most of my family--and my unlawful inlaws--love a good fruitcake. Really though. I hate gynecologists, especially male ones. Yet I would hardly consider a checkup to be a violation, unless I denied my permission. I will concede that abortions are a poor choice for many women, but we have to make our own choices based on the best information available.

As a final note, there are more than enough children up for adoption already. I would certainly abort any child of mine, before putting it up for adoption.

Oh, and Ashli, I'm still getting a chuckle out of your silly pretensions about "making a difference." You sound like a Miss America contestant, or some self-satisfied lefty telling us why she went into journalism. It's funny to hear today's right appropriate the language of yesterday's left, espcially when they follow their tribal instincts and vote for a venal craven draft-dodger that, by comparison, makes Clinton look moral, and JFK look like a John Bircher.

I've been thinking of sign slogans for our movement:

Masturbation is murder.
I regret my masturbation!
Pro-child, pro-sperm!
Planned Parenthood = anti-sperm
God is pro-Sperm!
Defend the helpless - Defend sperm!
A sperm is a life with potential ... not potential life!
Your mother was Pro-sperm!

Now that the Steelers have lost, I suddenly find I have Sundays free again... a blessing in disguise I suppose. I'm taking the time to read through the full Carnival. I encourage everyone else to do so, I've noticed that the comments section seems to be dominated by the first entry in the Carnival, Ashli's blog posting on abortion. Rather bad form on RA's part, in an otherwise wonderful list of entries, to beat his own dead horse topic on the first entry. Anyway, Ashli has her own personal abortion story on her blog today, and after reading it, I don't feel as much like making fun o