The Raving Theist

Dedicated to Jesus Christ, Now and Forever

Ashli Update

May 29, 2009 | 85 Comments

Thank you all again for your prayers for Ashli McCall. A biopsy report was finally issued on Wednesday, but the results were inconclusive. It will be a few more days before additional testing is completed so that a definitive diagnosis can be reached. I will update you as the information becomes available.

Please continue to pray. So many miracles relating to Ashli’s ability to obtain proper healthcare have occurred over the past week and I am certain that your prayers have had an effect. Her treatment will resume next week at one of the country’s finest teaching hospitals with doctors who are the simply the best in their respective specialties. The tumor, regardless of its pathology, will be surgically removed on June 11.

I also ask that you pray for Dawn Eden. She’ll be undergoing surgery on the very same day as Ashli. I’ll link to her updates as she posts them. Pray that both of these kind and generous women are fully healed so that they can continue to share their gifts with the world.

Comments

85 Responses to “Ashli Update”

  1. Christina
    May 29th, 2009 @ 10:05 pm

    Prayers for both.

  2. Janet Meyer
    May 29th, 2009 @ 10:47 pm

    Prayers for both from me, too.

  3. Pikemann Urge
    May 30th, 2009 @ 4:37 am

    Would it be fair to suggest that all Christians pray daily for anyone and everyone who needs help? That would prevent favouritism.

    No, no, that was just me being cheeky. No favouritism is going on. But seriously: one prayer, once a day, for any and all.

  4. Carla
    May 30th, 2009 @ 7:41 am

    Thank you, RT. I will be praying for Ashli and Dawn. June 11th. Got it.

  5. Lily
    May 30th, 2009 @ 9:23 am

    Actually, Pikeman, the Church offers prayers for the world at every mass. So it is a done deal!

  6. Ashli
    May 30th, 2009 @ 11:26 am

    Lord God, you know about these situations. You know about doctors and surgeries and illness. None of this is a surprise to You. None of it is beyond Your jurisdiction. You know all situations and everyone by name whether prayed for or not. And daily Your love and grace bless the lives of all who live whether they acknowledge You or not. Knowing what we need before we ask, You don’t need us to pray. But the beautiful, mesmerizing thing is that you WANT to hear from us; You want a living relationship with us where we communicate often each day. Love like that is a miracle. Thank You! So Father, I pray for Dawn. She’s a beautiful child of Yours striving daily to do Your will. She loves You and longs to do much work yet for you. Increase her years that she may serve You and live the love that You are. Help her to feel the love of friends so that her burden is lightened and she is not lonely in her struggle. Heal her, Oh Father, I plead; hide her in the shadow of Your wings in the precious name of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Amen.

  7. JoAnna
    May 30th, 2009 @ 5:07 pm

    prayers for both Dawn and Ashli!

    Pikeman, I pray for everyone FIFTY times a day.

    Really, I do!

    When I say my daily rosary, I say this prayer 50 times:

    “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS, now and at the hour of your death. Amen.”

    And during the same rosary, I say this prayer five times:

    “Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls into heaven, especially those in most need of your mercy. Amen.”

    So you can take comfort in knowing that you and the rest of the world are prayed for, every day. :)

  8. Pikemann Urge
    May 31st, 2009 @ 5:03 am

    “Pikeman, I pray for everyone FIFTY times a day.”

    BTW it’s Pikemann not Pikeman. Anyways, is it not redundant then to pray specifically for one person? Not that anyone is undeserving. But if you pray daily for all persons, what is the point?

  9. K T Cat
    May 31st, 2009 @ 8:13 am

    Our prayers are with Ashli.

  10. MK
    May 31st, 2009 @ 8:31 am

    Pike,

    No, no, that was just me being cheeky. No favouritism is going on. But seriously: one prayer, once a day, for any and all.

    I pray a rosary every day, often go to daily mass, and take an hour a week at our Adoration Chapel…and I offer all of it up for the entire world.

    There is a Catholic Devotional Prayer called The Divine Mercy Chaplet…

    Basically you say:

    Eternal Father, I offer you the body and blood, soul and divinity, of your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord, in atonement for our sins…and those of the whole world.

    Then you say 10 times: For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.

    Trust me when I tell you that the goal of the Catholic Church is for a conversion of hearts in the WHOLE WORLD.

    Every Mass that is offered up EVERYWHERE, EVERY DAY, and there are thousands upon thousands of them…are for EVERYONE.

    Sometimes, we add specific intentions. Like Ashli and Dawn Eden.

  11. MK
    May 31st, 2009 @ 8:36 am

    Pike,

    No it’s not redundant. I love everyone in my family, but sometimes I’ll tell one kid specifically that I love them.

    Asking God for a special favor is sensible. Growing up your mother and father took care of you. They met your needs. But didn’t you still go to them and ask for special things sometimes? Was that redundant, considering you trusted them to give you what you needed on a daily basis?

    Remember, we have a “relationship” with God. He’s not just some illusory “something out there”. He is our friend. We talk to Him all the time. Like any friend we share our concerns and ask for help when we need it. In turn we offer help when He needs it.

  12. Alexa
    May 31st, 2009 @ 12:44 pm

    RT, thanks for keeping us updated. Ashli, be strong. Praying for you and Dawn.

  13. Pikemann Urge
    June 1st, 2009 @ 5:22 am

    MK “Remember, we have a “relationship” with God.”

    I see your point but my rebuttal of your analogy with your parents is that God is all-knowing and your parents are not. You do in fact need to make special pleas with them (a ride to school; a loan of a few dollars).

    And would your prayers be less effective if they were said 9 times? More effective if said 11 times? Surely God knows what you’re feeling, yes?

    I guess that you need to have a catalyst to care in the first place. You see people suffering in the newspaper and you feel for them. But when someone you know suffers… then you know what all those newspaper articles really mean.

  14. lily
    June 1st, 2009 @ 6:23 am

    I thimk the resolution of the mystery lies in the fact that we don’t need to pray for our needs or the needs of others, exactly; we need to be in communion with God. Prayer changes us and it creates, like any ongoing serious discussion, a bond with God. It is very hard to pray for someone you despise. But once you start doing it, it becomes harder to despise that person. It is very hard to pray for someone in need and not do something, if you haven’t already. Prayer inculcates an attitude that makes us more able to love, more generous, more patient, than we would otherwise be.

  15. Melissa
    June 1st, 2009 @ 2:52 pm

    Been praying for Ashli a LOT!! Will pray for Dawn too! Wow!

    Speaking of Dawn, I just got an e-mail from AUL about her joining their team as a Senior Fellow. Congratulations Dawn!! :)

  16. Mia
    June 1st, 2009 @ 4:24 pm

    Keeping the prayer fires burning for you Ashli. Deep breaths and know you are loved.

  17. Ashli
    June 6th, 2009 @ 5:25 pm

    Praying for clarity…

  18. Thor
    June 7th, 2009 @ 12:29 pm

    Yes, continue to pray to the same god who caused all the problems you wish him to fix! Pray hard for a miracle, because we all know how effective that is. Just remember, if this shit don’t work out good then it will only because you didn’t pray enough. It will be on all of you, not the Lord.

  19. JoAnna
    June 7th, 2009 @ 4:25 pm

    Wow, Thor! 2,000 years of Christianity and you’re the first person to ever raise such questions! What would the world do without your dizzying logic?

  20. EclecticGuru
    June 8th, 2009 @ 2:14 am

    “What would the world do without (your dizzying) logic?”

    Probably start by trying to ban gay marriage.

    YMMV

  21. JoAnna
    June 8th, 2009 @ 11:09 am

    EG,

    If an atheistic society is a guaranteed utopia, why is North Korea such a clusterfuck of epic proportions? (Oddly enough, I think gay marriage is illegal there, too.)

    But by all means, keep drinking the Kool-Aid, if it helps you sleep at night.

  22. EclecticGuru
    June 8th, 2009 @ 11:25 am

    Oooh, if it is good for North Korea, I guess its good enough for us.

  23. MK
    June 9th, 2009 @ 8:33 pm

    Pikeman,

    Remember when I said that prayer was used to offset sin, and sin was the cause of suffering. You must offer up equal amounts of prayer as sin.

    Think of prayer, (when it is reparational) as a pencil eraser. You’ve got a page that’s been scribbled on. Every prayer is like an eraser mark. You keep prayin’ til the page is erased.

    Not all prayer is in reparation tho. There are lots of kinds of prayer.

    But every bad thing in the world is caused by sin…somewhere.

    If everybody tomorrow stopped sinning…I mean totally…there would never be another illness, or death, or tear…it’s our fault that these things exist, and God in His mercy, gave us a way to undo sin…even the sin of others.

    Everytime you sin, evil goes out into the world. Where it will land is anyones guess. Could land on a guy in Japan and he’ll get hit by a bus. Could land in a “pile” of evil, and you get a war.

    Every prayer helps to offset that evil…

    So, yes. Ashli’s illness is a result of sin. The more prayers, the more that sin is eradicated. (Mind you, it wasn’t necessarily, and probably not, Ashli’s sin that caused her illness. But it was someones sin…).

    I offer up a daily rosary, an hour of adoration every week, plus as many masses as I can get to during the week…all of these I offer up to offset sin.
    So do millions of Catholics worldwide. If ever a day came when there were no Masses ANYWHERE being said, the world would probably end on the spot. That how powerful of a prayer the Mass is. And how powerful sin is.

  24. MK
    June 9th, 2009 @ 8:39 pm

    Pikeman,

    This is what we mean by community. We are all responsible for each other. Both the good and the bad. If we all worked together, you’d be amazed at what could happen.

    We are supposed to image God’s love for the three persons in the trinity, and His love for us, by loving each other as He loves. Hence a call for prayer goes out, and Ashli knows that we will all answer that call. She knows we are a family, and that we can count on each other. Remember, it’s all about relationships. The communion of saints, the universal church, the Angels…all working together…

    It’s actually pretty dang cool…

  25. EclecticGuru
    June 10th, 2009 @ 3:11 am

    That is cool.

    I’m very glad that catholics are out there praying to keep the world from ending. And for the muslims who are praying to keep the sun from going supernova. And for all the hindus praying to keep all the air from rushing into space.

    If it weren’t for all those prayers, the world would really be fucked.

    Keep praying!

  26. Matthew in Fairfax
    June 10th, 2009 @ 6:12 am

    Soooo… I hope everyone’s Wednesday morning is going well.

    I guess I have a small occasion to ask for people’s prayers. My dad needs to meet with the county on Friday afternoon, and without going into details, he needs for the meeting to go well. I just ask for the best possible outcome, whatever it may be. (I don’t think I know what the best outcome is myself.)

  27. MK
    June 10th, 2009 @ 6:38 am

    And for the muslims who are praying to keep the sun from going supernova. And for all the hindus praying to keep all the air from rushing into space.

    You were being sarcastic weren’t you? You don’t really believe that Muslims and Hindus are praying for those things.

    And you’re welcome. Of course us Catholics praying for the world to continue is not totally altruistic. I mean, we want to go on living too. But you might as well enjoy the benefits also.

  28. Lily
    June 10th, 2009 @ 6:40 am

    Consider it done, Matthew.

    MK– very nicely said about communion. It reminded me to mention that I have just started reading B-16’s book on the Apostles. The 2nd chapter deals with communion. It is powerful stuff in a deceptively small package. If you haven’t read it, I do recommend it. Maybe when I get home tonight, I will take a shot at summarizing it.

  29. MK
    June 10th, 2009 @ 7:51 am

    Yes, continue to pray to the same god who caused all the problems you wish him to fix! Pray hard for a miracle, because we all know how effective that is. Just remember, if this shit don’t work out good then it will only because you didn’t pray enough. It will be on all of you, not the Lord.

    What problems did God cause? Seriously, I don’t understand.

    Also, it’s not that it WILL be on all of us. It already is. It has never been on the Lord. WE are the ones that have caused all of the problems.

    It is also interesting to note that not only are atheists responsible for the worst wars and the most deaths in histroy, they also didn’t step in and “help” during the holocaust. Where were they when the Catholics were hiding the Jews in their floorboards?

  30. EclecticGuru
    June 10th, 2009 @ 11:26 am

    “You don’t really believe that Muslims and Hindus are praying for those things.”

    Of course not, but their prayers pacify the deity (and all its associated saints, angels, djinni, minor gods, and so forth). If not for their prayers, the supernatural bad guys would smite us for crossing them.

    Catholic god would end the world (or just make everyone sick). Muslim god would make the star go supernova (he’d send gabriel to do it). Hindu god would fuck with the atmosphere.

    Gotta make those gods all happy or else.

    Keep up the good work, Team Prayer Force!

  31. EclecticGuru
    June 10th, 2009 @ 11:39 am

    “Where were (atheists) when the Catholics were hiding the Jews in their floorboards?”

    Under the floorboards.

  32. JoAnna
    June 10th, 2009 @ 2:01 pm

    I thought the Jews were under the floorboards.

  33. Lily
    June 10th, 2009 @ 4:30 pm

    I thought the subflooring was under the floorboards!

    You are just encouraging him, JoAnna. If he follows you home, you are going to have to keep him.

  34. MK
    June 10th, 2009 @ 5:53 pm

    EG,

    “Where were (atheists) when the Catholics were hiding the Jews in their floorboards?”

    Under the floorboards.

    LOL…or hiding under the bed??

    Seriously tho, as far as I know, Christianity is the only faith that believes that sacrificing, and offering up your suffering are a way to offset sin. We’re not waving magic wands and saying abracadabra. While that might work, that’s not what I was talking about.

    I know you don’t believe in God, but you have to admit, that if there was one, the Christian one is pretty sweet.

    I love the idea that we are one great “body” all working together and caring for each other and everyone else. I mean, of course, I know we fail more often than not, but the faith itself is pretty good. Thinking of others first, giving, telling and loving the Truth, sacrificing for the whole, welcoming every color, sex, mentality, personality…even people of other faiths are welcome. Taking care of the poor, teaching, working with the sick, sheltering the homeless, feeding the hungry, leading the academic community…we have the best art, and some fine music…

    Really, what would you do differently?

  35. JoAnna
    June 10th, 2009 @ 5:59 pm

    I know, Lily, but I just can’t resist… he’s so darn lovable!

  36. EclecticGuru
    June 10th, 2009 @ 9:44 pm

    “LOL…or hiding under the bed??”

    Hiding from their “good christian neighbors” for sure.

  37. MK
    June 11th, 2009 @ 6:19 am

    EG,

    Hiding from their “good christian neighbors” for sure.

    I keep trying to tell you that your logic is faulty…but do you listen????

    German soldiers are hunting down Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and Catholics…starving them, treating them like animals, gassing them, using their bones for soap…any you’re under the bed hiding from Christians? No wonder you don’t “get” it.

  38. EclecticGuru
    June 11th, 2009 @ 11:21 am

    1) They weren’t hunting down catholics.

    2) If all your christian nazi neighbors were looking to “send you away”, it’s not unreasonable to have hidden from them.

  39. Lily
    June 11th, 2009 @ 1:16 pm

    How ignorant are you, exactly and why doesn’t it stop you from posting on subjects you actually know nothing about? The Nazis set about to exterminate the Polish priesthood and damned near succeeded. Do you know anything at all about WWII? Anything?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E2%80%931945)#Suppression_of_the_Roman_Catholic_Church_and_other_religions

  40. JoAnna
    June 11th, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

    EG, I recommend “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope” by Rabbi David Dalin. I’m reading it now and it’s a fascinating book so far. Rabbi Dalin documents, with a plethora of sources, how the Vatican has actually been a defender of the Jewish people throughout history.

    I also recommend “Priestblock 25487: A Memoir of Dachau” by Jean Bernard.

  41. Lily
    June 11th, 2009 @ 2:06 pm

    My comment to EG was too harsh and I apologize for that. We all tend to pontificate on subjects we know nothing about because most of us think we know something about a whole lot of things– we have all read books, seen movies and tv shows that mediate as much fiction as fact.

    When someone says we are wrong about something, the better part of wisdom would be to step back and ask ourselves what we actually do *know*. Not what we have imbibed from the culture around us but what we actually know from experience, training, study of reliable sources, etc.

    This is a good instance that illustrates how a popular myth can bear little resemblance to reality. The treatment of Catholics under the Nazis is rather well-documented but has hardly made a dent in the popular mind. Some myths really are hard to counter.

  42. EclecticGuru
    June 12th, 2009 @ 4:15 am

    Yes, the nazis wanted to exterminate the poles. Doesn’t prove anything regarding a systematic policy against catholicism. Do you have any sources to support that claim?

  43. MK
    June 12th, 2009 @ 6:20 am

    EG,

    Lily and Joanne just gave you sources. Honestly, you really don’t know that Catholics were targeted??? Or are you being funny?

    I don’t want to waste my time finding more sources if you’re just pulling our chain, but if you seriously didn’t know that Catholics were targeted, I’ll be happy to show you proof…

  44. Lily
    June 12th, 2009 @ 6:44 am

    I don’t think it should be necessary to do more, mk. It isn’t just that we cited a couple sources. If EG is interested, it is pretty likely that there is a library in his city. Even if he thinks those books or Wiki are biased and that the authors have played fast and loose with the facts, the Wiki article and Dalin’s book have bibliographies he could consult. The other book is a memoir and, judging from the Amazon reviews and publicity blurbs, it is a stunning book. The author was from Luxembourg and, according to the book’s description, there were 3000 other clergy at Dachau with him.

  45. EclecticGuru
    June 12th, 2009 @ 11:45 am

    The reason you can’t find any sources indicating a systematic policy against catholics by the nazis is that a large number of nazis were catholic themselves. And nearly all the rest were protestant.

  46. JoAnna
    June 12th, 2009 @ 11:48 am

    EG, I gave sources, see the two book recommendations in my post above.

    When I was a student at the University of Minnesota (Twin Cities), I took a course called “The History of the Holocaust.” My professor was Jewish. Not once did our professor say anything derogatory about the Catholic Church’s role; on the contrary, he highlighted the writings of Martin Luther (e.g., “On the Jews and their Lies”). At the time, I was Lutheran, and I was shocked, as I’d never known about Martin Luther’s extreme anti-Semitism.

    I know it’s purely anecdotal, but don’t you think that, if the CC had played such a large role in perpetuating the Holocaust, my Jewish professor at a liberal university would have at least mentioned it? (BTW, I did earn an “A” in that class, so I was paying attention!)

    I really encourage you to read Rabbi Dalin’s book. His sources are primarily respected Jewish historians. It’s a fascinating read.

  47. EclecticGuru
    June 12th, 2009 @ 12:43 pm

    I’m not arguing that the catholic church played any role at all in the perpetuation of the holocaust. Don’t get defensive.

    I’m saying:

    1) The nazi government never had a policy against catholics.

    2) Many nazis were catholic themselves.

    Therefore the nazis were not “hunting down catholics”.

    Seriously, the nazis occupied france for crying out loud, you’d think if they were rounding up catholics for the holocaust that they’d have had several extermination camps in France.

    They didn’t have a single extermination camp there. And the few concentration camps they did have there contained, for the most part, jews, communists, and prisoners of war.

    It’s weird. I’ve never heard of anyone trying to say that “catholics” were targets in the holocaust.

    It’s easier to pretend that it wasn’t christians that were manning the gas chambers and guarding the extermination camps, eh?

  48. JoAnna
    June 12th, 2009 @ 1:25 pm

    Um, EG…

    1) the Nazi government never had a policy about atheists

    2) Many Nazis were atheists themselves

    So, by your own logic, atheists were just as complicit as Catholics on the Holocaust.

    Catholics weren’t targeted TO THE EXTENT that Jews were. But they were still targeted. Actually, it was mostly due to the delicate diplomatic tightrope walked by Pope Pius XII (while clandestinely saving Jews) that prevented a widescale round-up of Catholics. (See the book by Rabbi Dalin I’ve referenced for sources.)

    Homosexuals alsocweren’t targeted to the extent that Jews were, but they were still targeted. Do you deny this?

  49. EclecticGuru
    June 12th, 2009 @ 2:14 pm

    “So, by your own logic, atheists were just as complicit as Catholics on the Holocaust.”

    Assuming your premise: “many nazis were atheists”, then yes. There is nothing about atheism that makes one especially virtuous. It just means you’re more rational than theists about ONE SPECIFIC magical belief. Magical racism has even fewer merits than magical theism.

    I just wonder about your definition of “many” however.

    “Homosexuals also weren’t targeted to the extent that Jews were, but they were still targeted. Do you deny this?”

    No, the germans had laws against homosexuality. Did they have laws against catholicism?

  50. JoAnna
    June 12th, 2009 @ 2:33 pm

    Wow, way to miss the point, EG. You seem to think that everyone who calls themselves Catholic actually, you know, follows the Catholic faith. Sadly, that’s not the case. For example, look at all the nominal Catholics in Obama’s administration. A Nazi who identified as Catholic but went around killing Jews was not following the Catholic faith. At all.

    There were laws in Germany that targeted Catholics, even if Catholicism itself wasn’t outright banned. (And again, if not for Pius XII, it’s possible that Hitler would have started exterminating Catholics. As it was, the Nazi government already considered Pius XII to be an enemy of Hitler.)

  51. JoAnna
    June 12th, 2009 @ 3:55 pm

    I thought you might be interested in this quote as recorded in Dalin’s book, EG:

    “Being a lover of freedom, when the Nazi revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the Catholic Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistance to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise undeservedly.”

    — Albert Einstein

    Dalin’s source is: Time, December 23, 1940, 38-40.

  52. Lily
    June 12th, 2009 @ 3:58 pm

    Why do we continue to feed this troll? And yes, EG is a troll. He isn’t discussing anything with us honestly. He is making ignorant, unsupported accusations. Let’s give him one more chance, shall we?

    The Nazi Persecution of the Churches, 1933-1945– chunks of it are available on Google books– more than enough to make the case. See the conclusion if you want to cut to the chase: //tinyurl.com/nwdj5m (I left off the http in order not to land in moderation)

    This is what Vienna’s city website says about the Nazis and the Church:

    The dense network of Catholic institutions and the Church’s deep roots in society proved a serious threat to the Nazi regime that wanted to gain total control. To implement their ideological claim as sole representatives of the people the Nazis eliminated the Church’s influence on education: confessional education and catholic associations were dissolved or forced to dissolve. Austria was declared an area not bound by a concordat (this means an agreement between the Holy See and a government in religious matters).

    The Nazis took hold of the properties of the Catholic Church in Austria. A church tax system replaced state payments and the “religious fund” (proceeds from church assets confiscated by Emperor Joseph II. According to the records of important meetings the church tax system was introduced so that large numbers of Catholics would leave the church. Christian churches also lost their state support. Many Catholic associations were dissolved. Expropriation also affected 26 big monasteries with extensive agricultural enterprises, trade businesses and art treasures.

    Parts of the Protestant and Catholic churches, however, also showed a rather positive attitude towards the “Anschluss”. The Protestant churches also suffered substantial financial losses due to the anti-religious measures of the Nazis and the introduction of the church tax system. (//www.wien.gv.at/english/administration/restitution/assets/religion.html)

    How much more must we come up with before you will consider that infintesimally small chance that you might not know it all?

  53. JoAnna
    June 12th, 2009 @ 3:58 pm

    Oops! What am embarrassing misquote. My iPhone turned the last word of the quote from “unreservedly” to “undeservedly.” I didn’t catch it; sorry!

  54. Lily
    June 12th, 2009 @ 4:00 pm

    Don’t worry JoAnna. It was a Freudian slip. On another topic, I just wish I could remember to close tags!

  55. EclecticGuru
    June 13th, 2009 @ 11:37 am

    “A Nazi who identified as Catholic but went around killing Jews was not following the Catholic faith.”

    Classic no true scotsman “defense”. It’s an oldy but a goody!

    Regarding the nazi laws against “catholics”, I find it amusing that the best you could come up with to support your claim that the nazis were “hunting down catholics” was that the nazis ended state payments to the church, in Austria, and created a tax on church holdings so that the catholics would have to pay for their own fancy churches in Austria. Its because they brought fucking austria into line with german laws when the two countries were joined together as one. Later on in the same fucking quote, the writer notes that elements of the catholic church SUPPORTED the Anschluss.

    Fucking brilliant. You’re seriously trying to argue that catholics were “hunted down” like the jews, homosexuals, poles, slavs, or communists were — and this is the best you could come up with.

    You’re fucking crazy. I’m not going to discuss this anymore with you self-deluded weirdos. Have fun in your magic world.

  56. Lily
    June 13th, 2009 @ 1:15 pm

    Ah, another deep thinker leaves the fold. How typical of a certain type of “liberal” atheist. We multiply examples and sources of information– from the extermination of the Polish priesthood, the systematic destruction of Protestant and Catholic clergy (the book to which I linked on Google spells that out), to the expropriation of property and persecution of Catholics in Vienna.

    He trots out a silly “logical fallacy” which is actually not a logical fallacy at all and thinks he has trumped the evidence! We’re “fucking” crazy? What is with people like this? What is this refusal to think and face facts honestly?

  57. MK
    June 13th, 2009 @ 1:24 pm

    lily,

    demonic possession?

  58. EclecticGuru
    June 13th, 2009 @ 1:53 pm

    You’re all nuttier than a snickers bar.

  59. Lily
    June 13th, 2009 @ 5:41 pm

    You know, mk, that has been proposed to me before about people who won’t acknowledge the possibility, much less admit, that their positions might not be grounded in actual knowledge. I, modernist that I am, have always pooh-poohed that. But, certainly, Satan is the father of lies and he certainly can blind those who don’t want to see.

    Maybe this is the kind that can only come out by much prayer (Mark 9:29).

  60. MK
    June 14th, 2009 @ 7:57 am

    EG,

    We were all having a pretty good conversation. We made a claim that you didn’t agree with, and suddenly you’re calling us names. I don’t get it.

    We made sure to emphasize that in no way, were Catholics targeted to the same degree as the Jews, but proved that yes, many Catholics were killed because they WERE Catholics. Priests especially, because the Church posed a threat to Hitler. People, INCLUDING the GERMAN Catholics, would listen to their priests and the Church so they had to be silenced.

    They might not have been targeted for the same reasons as the Jews, but they were targeted.

    You could have just disagreed, or said, hmmmmm…I didn’t realize that..or well, it wasn’t on the same scale as the rest of who Hitler was targeting, but instead you insulted us.

    Now you tell me, which one of us behaved poorly?

    As for the Scotsman argument…There is a difference between being black and being a bank robber. Blacks are born black and there is nothing they can do about it. Scotsman are born Scotsman. Catholics are Catholic by choice. Bank robbers are bank robbers by choice.

    I can wear a tutu and toe shoes. I can call myself a ballerina. But that doesn’t make me one. Until I dance, I’m just a chick in a lace skirt.

    Being a Catholic means actively living the Catholic Teachings. You can kneel, you can recite the Our Father, you can even use holy water, but until you “dance”, your just a guy in a pew.

  61. EclecticGuru
    June 14th, 2009 @ 1:19 pm

    “We were all having a pretty good conversation. We made a claim that you didn’t agree with, and suddenly you’re calling us names. I don’t get it.”

    —–

    “Why do we continue to feed this troll? And yes, EG is a troll. He isn’t discussing anything with us honestly. He is making ignorant, unsupported accusations.”

    “demonic possession?”

    —–

    It’s hard enough for me to hide my innate disdain for your whole mindset when you’re at least making a token effort to be rational, but when you give up and go into this weird magic world where you believe that Catholics were hunted down by nazis (alongside the jews, slavs, gypsies, and communists who were ACTUALLY hunted down by the nazis), and that anyone with any sense who knows that you’re full of shit is called an ignorant dishonest demon-possessed troll then I’m finished with you.

  62. Lily
    June 14th, 2009 @ 2:05 pm

    Yet you keep coming back! Why? If you will not argue honestly, go away!

  63. EclecticGuru
    June 14th, 2009 @ 2:33 pm

    Croatia.

  64. EclecticGuru
    June 14th, 2009 @ 10:16 pm

    You do know what happened in Croatia during the holocaust right?

  65. JoAnna
    June 15th, 2009 @ 1:55 pm

    You know, it’s just too bad I can’t contact Dr. Feinstein (he died in March 2008) and ask him why he never taught me that the Catholic Church was responsible for the Holocaust.

    Read Dalin’s book, EG. Read Bernard’s book too. Then please come back and tell me that Catholics weren’t persecuted.

    Did some Catholics commit atrocities during the Holocaust? Yup. But so did some atheists. Rather than assign collective guilt, perhaps we should blame the individuals for their own choices.

  66. MK
    June 15th, 2009 @ 8:06 pm

    EG,

    I was only joking when I said that. C’mon. You know that. I haven’t seriously insulted you once. I was actually trying to lighten the mood. But I see it didn’t work. Sorry if you thought I was being serious.

    Here, this is from Time Magazine with a quote from Albert Einstein…

    We must remember that the Holocaust was also anti-Christian. After Hitler revealed his true intentions, the Catholic Church opposed him. Even the famous Albert Einstein testified to that. According to the December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38, Einstein said:

    Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks…

    Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

    In another, similar statement, Einstein referred explicitly to the Catholic Church (Lapide, p. 251). This is an extraordinary testimony by an agnostic German scientist of Jewish heritage. Even though there were traitors in her ranks, the Church still opposed the Nazi movement.

    The December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine contains an interesting article about Christians living in Germany, both Catholic and Protestant, who opposed and suffered under the Nazis. On page 38, it claims that by late 1940 over 200,000 Christians were prisoners in Nazi concentration camps, with some estimates as high as 800,000. On page 40, it reports on the Archbishop of Munich, Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber, who led the Catholic opposition in Germany against the Nazis. In an Advent 1933 sermon, he preached: “Let us not forget that we were saved not by German blood but by the blood of Christ!” in response to Nazi racism. In 1934 the Cardinal “narrowly missed a Nazi bullet”, while in 1938 a Nazi mob broke the windows in his residence. Even though he was over seventy and in poor health, he still led the Catholic German resistance against Hitler.

    Not trusting the new regime, the Vatican signed a Concordat with the Reich on July 20, 1933 in an attempt to protect the Church’s rights in Germany. But the Nazis quickly violated its articles. In Lent 1937 Pope Pius XI issued the encyclical “Mit brennender Sorge” (With burning sorrow) with the help of German bishops and Cardinal Pacelli (later Pope Pius XII). It was smuggled into Germany and read in all German Catholic churches at the same hour on Palm Sunday 1937. It did not explicitly mention Hitler or Nazism, but it firmly condemned the Nazi doctrines. On September 20, 1938, Pius XI told German pilgrims that no Christian can take part in anti-Semitism, since spiritually all Christians are Semites.

    Pope Pius XII was a diplomat and not a radical preacher. He knew that he first needed to preserve Vatican neutrality so that Vatican City could be a refuge for war victims. The International Red Cross also remained neutral. Secondly, he knew how powerless he was against Hitler. Mussolini could quickly shut off electrical power to Vatican Radio during his broadcast (Lapide, p. 256). Finally the Nazis did not tolerate any protest and responded severely. As an example, the Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps, including Blessed Edith Stein (Lapide, p. 246). Pius knew that every time he spoke out against Hitler, the Nazis could retaliate against the prisoners. His best attack against the Nazis was quiet diplomacy and behind-the-scenes action. According to The 1996 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia (V8.01) under Pius XII, “Wishing to preserve Vatican neutrality, fearing reprisals, and realizing his impotence to stop the Holocaust, Pius nonetheless acted on an individual basis to save many Jews and others with church ransoms, documents, and asylum.”

    http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html

  67. MK
    June 15th, 2009 @ 8:10 pm

    EG,

    And I gotta assume that you’ll have no problem with this source?

    Five Million Forgotten – Holocaust’s Non-Jewish Victims

    Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany.

    http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/fivmil.htm

    From the same source:

    Priests and Pastors Died for Their Beliefs.

    Hitler wanted not only to conquer all of Europe, but Hitler also wanted to create a new religion and to replace Jesus Christ as a person to be worshipped. Hitler expected his followers to worship the Nazi ideology. Since Catholic priests and Christian pastors were often influential leaders in their community, they were sought out by the Nazis very early. Thousands of Catholic priests and Christian pastors were forced into concentration camps. A special barracks was set up at Dachau, the camp near Munich, Germany, for clergymen. A few survived; some were executed, but most were allowed to die slowly of starvation or disease.

    I mean, this is from the National Holocaust Site…Why would they lie.

    I think the problem you’re experiencing from our end, is that this is common knowledge. You are actually the very first person I have ever met, that didn’t know that Catholics were targeted by Hitler. That’s why I think everyone reacted so passionately. It’s like hearing you think the world is flat, or that the holocaust didn’t happen…you see?

  68. EclecticGuru
    June 16th, 2009 @ 4:57 am

    “It’s like hearing you think the world is flat, or that the holocaust didn’t happen…you see?”

    I totally sympathize with this feeling. Only I’m having that feeling about you people.

    What was going on with the catholics in Croatia? Were they targeted for extermination along with all those french and german catholics that you believe were murdered?

  69. EclecticGuru
    June 16th, 2009 @ 5:18 am

    I was raised a catholic, went to catholic school — all my closest friends were raised catholic, some still are catholic. My grandparents are polish, italian, and irish.

    None of the people I’ve spoken to about your kooky “catholics were targets of the holocaust” theory has ever heard anything about this.

    Can I ask you what part of the world you’re from? I’m from New England in the united states, and most of our churches here are either Polish-American or Irish-American catholic churches.

  70. MK
    June 16th, 2009 @ 6:12 am

    EG,

    I’m from the Midwest. Did you read the links I sent you?
    There is a Maximilian Kolbe museum here. It has stuff from the cell that he was in. And the story of his death.

    I didn’t realize how many people didn’t know that Catholics were targeted. I don’t know what else I can show you.

    Again, this is just common knowledge. Have you tried googling “Catholics killed in the holocaust”? Cuz a ton of stuff comes up.

    Or you could ask a priest. Do you want more links?

  71. Lily
    June 16th, 2009 @ 6:14 am

    How much more do you need to go out and do some checking on your own, for crying out loud! How hard you cling to your beloved myth. How hard you cling to the atheist lies about the Church! Just how intellectually bankrupt are you? What will it take for you to get off your butt and do a tiny bit of work?

    I don’t know where in NE you can possibly mean. I lived there for 13 years and the Catholics were from everywhere. There were Ukrainian, Italian, Polish, Greek Orthodox and a bewildering variety of others just within shouting distance of Cambridge where I worked. I am not even sure what you mean by that question but it does point clearly to how little you actually know about the religion you were supposedly raised in.

    Maybe you should put your disdain aside and actually read a little history. Stand out from the herd– know what you are talking about!

  72. MK
    June 16th, 2009 @ 6:14 am

    EG,

    Also, it’s important to note, again, that we weren’t targeted for the same reasons as the gays, jews, etc. We were a threat to Hitler. That’s why he wanted to get rid of us. It was mostly the clergy, not the lay people. Although in Poland, one estimate is that 3,000,000 Catholics were killed. But I think that is more because they were Polish than because they were Catholic.

  73. Lily
    June 16th, 2009 @ 6:21 am

    Well, of course it was the clergy, mk. As I think you already pointed out, the Nazis thought they knew that if they got rid of the visible leaders, Catholic resistance would be crushed. Where Poland is concerned, it is hard to make the distinction between Pole and Catholic. John Paul the Great risked his life to continue studying for the priesthood after the seminaries were closed. He was not the only one.

  74. EclecticGuru
    June 16th, 2009 @ 12:01 pm

    “Where Poland is concerned, it is hard to make the distinction between Pole and Catholic.”

    Right.

    “I’m from the Midwest. Did you read the links I sent you?”

    Yes. Are you still talking about the polish catholic stuff? I already told you I’m well aware that the nazis were trying to exterminate their slavic neighbors — and they started in poland. But he didn’t target poland because they were catholic.

    It just so happens that the catholic church in poland was very outspokenly pro-slavic, and champions of the slavic polish culture.

    Where is the evidence that they targeted non-slavic catholics for the holocaust?

    On the other hand there’s plenty of historical evidence that catholics were the driving force behind the bloodiest and most brutal acts in the holocaust. Croatia. Read up on the forced conversions and how the catholic clergy was actually in charge of one of the concentration camps there. The post invasion nazi-installed government actually stated that they would get rid of the serbs by converting 1/3 of them to catholicism, driving 1/3 out, and killing the other 1/3.

    It just doesn’t make any sense to me that you can say that the nazis were hunting down catholics.

    In croatia, the nazi-installed government was an actual catholic political party, and eagerly executed the holocaust for its masters — adding only that they would spare their eastern orthodox neighbors if they converted to catholicism.

    In france, the leader of the nazi-installed vichy government was promoted by the french catholics as the “savior of france” because they promised to undo the evil “separation of church and state” that had been “perpetrated” by the post-revolution french government. It wasn’t until the nazis began openly exterminating the jews that the french catholic bishops spoke out against the practice, and even following that, the bishops were not themselves targeted.

    It’s clear that catholics weren’t targeted by the nazis. In fact, the nazis were tolerant of catholics and the practice of catholicism, to the extent of installing pro-catholic puppet governments in at least two of the conquered nations.

    I don’t even know how you can keep ignoring that. What’s the logic that makes you know those facts, yet still insist that these catholics were hunted down? Why the fuck would Hitler put catholics in charge of conquered countries if he was hunting them down? Explain this cunning plan, and I’ll stop being, as you’ve charged me “an evil atheist denier of the catholic holocaust.”

    PS: Lily, you’re a fucking psycho nutbag. Go take your meds or something, you’re off your rocker. Can you explain what was going on in Croatia and how that fits into your theory that catholics were the targets of the holocaust and not, in many cases, the perpetrators?

  75. EclecticGuru
    June 16th, 2009 @ 12:20 pm

    Off topic, what’s taking place on this message board is funny to me. I’ve never found catholics to be particularly nutty.

    I’m the first atheist of my family. I was raised in a completely catholic environment.

    My atheist wife sometimes calls me a “good little catholic boy” because of my personal views on abortion, the death penalty, and the fact that I usually notably exclude catholics from my anti-religious atheist raves because at least the catholic church has, slowly but surely, recognized and accepted several scientific theories (old earth, evolution, etc) and don’t seem hung up too much on trying to push religion during science class — at least they didn’t when I went to catholic school.

    In the fairness of open disclosure, I also often exclude mormons (because I like their pro-family pro-community emphasis) and scientologists (who are just too bold and crazy that I can’t help but find them cool) from my tirades. So I guess catholics, being spared my intellectual wrath, probably aren’t in the best of company, all things considered.

    I know you’re trying to defend catholicism and think your church is great and all that — but to me you are just showing that perhaps I was wrong about excluding catholics from my rather negative opinion on christianity as a whole — you’re really not that different.

    I’m out for good this time. The longer I stay here the more I’m coming to despise catholics as a whole and I have too many friends and family involved in that whole “transubstantiation” nonsense to continue allowing it to be tarnished in my mind by the likes of Lily.

  76. Nile
    June 16th, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

    Lily: Hello Lily, I’ve been busy with exams on Islam Christian polemics – among many. Here are a few questions that interested me and would like to hear what you think about them.
    1. If Jesus went to the Cross to be crucified with his own free will, then why do you blame the Jews? If he was forced, then does that not show that God was enable?
    2. The matter of Comma Johanneum.
    3. The parts cancelled in the Old Testament were not done by Jesus but through ordinary people through councils and so forth; therefore the cancellation is not valid (not done through divinity); you have to follow the rules of the Old Testament.
    There are many others, but these are the ones I remember right now.

  77. Lily
    June 16th, 2009 @ 10:27 pm

    Nile! How good to see you back! I am just about to go to be so here is a very quick response–

    1. We don’t blame the Jews for Christ’s death.

    2. I don’t know what this is.

    3. You need to read the Gospels to see how Jesus did “cancel” the laws (ceremonial and ritual– not the 10 commandments!) His actions spoke as loudly as his words.

    Paul is the one who spells it out and formalizes it, mostly in response to his horror at seeing his young churches slipping back into the old ways. You are right that this happened in consultation with the other Apostles and the Church in Jerusalem. But Jesus also gave them the authority to teach what he had taught and make disciples of all the nations.

    More later, if you like!

  78. MK
    June 16th, 2009 @ 10:31 pm

    EG,

    If you’re still there…this is the first I have heard of the Croatian situation…I looked on Wiki, because it was the only source I recognized. As we both know there are a lot of groups out there that will print all kinds of nonsense…

    While I know Wiki isn’t exactly a choice source, it was an unbiased one…

    It didn’t confirm everything that you said, but it did say that there were priests (who were later defrocked) that took part in this atrocity. I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m just saying that I would like to read an unbiased source. Do you have one?

  79. MK
    June 16th, 2009 @ 10:46 pm

    Nile,

    The parts cancelled in the Old Testament were not done by Jesus but through ordinary people through councils and so forth; therefore the cancellation is not valid (not done through divinity); you have to follow the rules of the Old Testament.

    Which parts were “canceled”? I mean, Jesus was pretty clear that He had come to “fulfill” the Old Testament, but that His was a “New” Covenant. No longer would we be required to follow the Old Laws. The New Law was the fulfillment of the Old Law.

    The New Law was not about following the “laws” to a “t”…it was about an attitude. It was no good to simply follow a bunch of rules. It was about following the way of the Cross. About hearts, not words.

    This is why there was that ruckus about eating certain foods, and whether or not you still had to be circumcised.

    The pharisees thought that if you followed the laws perfectly, YOU would be perfect. But Jesus said, no, it was an affair of the heart. If you followed all the laws, but had no love, of God, of each other, then you were just doing lip service…

    Is that what you mean?

  80. Lily
    June 17th, 2009 @ 5:09 pm

    MK, JoAnna– in light of our recent attempt to bring some truth to bear on notions about the involvement of the Church in the Holocaust, I was just amazed to find this news item on Zenit:

    A foundation that promotes interreligious dialogue announced that it has more than 2,300 pages of original documents illustrating Pope Pius XII’s efforts to help Jews in the face of Nazism. … If our foundation, he said, as “amateur fact finders, can uncover so much information, how is it that the so-called historians and academic institutions have allowed the 46-year-old assessment of Pius XII to continue unchallenged, impacting the opinions and relationships of over one billion people?” (http://www.zenit.org/article-26179?l=english)

    This is amazing to me. The president of the foundation says that they will be publishing these documents on their website and making them available to researchers, so we may learn a whole lot more about that era than we could ever have dreamed possible.

  81. MK
    June 17th, 2009 @ 6:06 pm

    Wow, Lily. Wasn’t someone saying that God ain’t listening! That’s like an answer to a prayer…lol.

  82. Nile
    June 18th, 2009 @ 6:46 am

    Lily and Mk: Thank you for your responses. Will be very busy with exams until end-June. Would like to converse later on these topics.

  83. MK
    June 18th, 2009 @ 4:44 pm

    Nile,

    I ALWAYS enjoy talking with you…I’ll be in the Smokies til the beginning of July, so I’ll see you then! :)

  84. Lilian
    August 23rd, 2011 @ 11:24 am

    I was looking everyehwre and this popped up like nothing!

  85. zhwpkqrfl
    August 27th, 2011 @ 6:32 am

    s4x7q1 xypihftzaxah

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