The Raving Theist

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Haunted

February 13, 2009 | 106 Comments

The two carefree young women in the bar were roommates. One of them was pregnant. The condition was temporary. In a few days her late-summer drinking companion would drive her to a clinic for an abortion, just as she had driven so many other friends to “get theirs.” That appointment made way for a relaxing evening, for the aversion the pregnant woman briefly felt towards alcohol was relieved by a sensible reminder.

“You are going to kill it anyway.”

Her friend was indifferent to who heard this remark (and many did) because the observation was so ordinary. It was like explaining why it didn’t matter if paint splattered on a pair of worn, soon-to-be discarded shoes. After another round of drinks and cheerful conversation, the comment would be forgotten.

It would also be remembered, some 18 years later. The pregnant woman was Carla, whose cheer that night masked an anguish I related here. The occasion of the memory was the realization, early last month, that her long-lost bar friend (known here as “Jean”) had discovered her profile on Facebook.

“You are going to kill it anyway.” And they did, and moved on. But now Carla’s whole profile is about abortion and its consequences, and she felt “weird” that her old roommate might be puzzling over it. Puzzling over it because Carla had hidden her feelings so well back then, on that night in the bar that they drank, and on that day in the clinic that they killed Aubrey.

What would Jean think? People do not happen upon old friends on Facebook by accident. They are searching for some name, for some reason. Jean may have been seeking some pleasant reminiscences, only to find a changed and strangely haunted woman. Haunted for a reason Jean could not imagine, having forgotten the events of what was — at least to her — such an ordinary September afternoon.

But the e-mail Carla received on January 7 showed that Jean was haunted too:

Hey Carla

It’s Jean. I was just on your Outcry Wisconsin website and watched your story.

My God! I never knew that was so hard for you. I was so young and completely oblivious to the ramifications of what was going on, but I have to tell you that the events of that day are carved in my brain and I have never forgotten it. I too remember that girl that was very pregnant and having to go home because she could not have the procedure until she was dilated more, and watching that stupid movie and how non-emotional all of the staff were. It affected me whether I wanted to believe it or not at the time. I have always tried to comfort myself with the false beliefs that it was the best thing for you at the time and that it did not matter that much to you. You covered it so well and we never really talked about what happened, we just came home and went on with life. I was so caught up in my own selfishness to notice the pain you were going through. I am sorry I was not a better friend to you at that time. Thank God Pat came along and was there for you.

Since having my own children I have definitely changed my attitude on abortion issues. I have gone from a liberal attitude to a very conservative one. My husband helped me understand what I was really feeling all along.

Anyway I can see how very important this issue is for you and I wanted you to know that I feel the same way. You are doing a wonderful thing by educating those that think this is not a big deal because it is a big deal and it’s wrong.

Keep on fighting!

Comments

106 Responses to “Haunted”

  1. frustrated(mk)
    February 13th, 2009 @ 11:49 am

    Looks like Carla and Jean need to go out for another drink… :) Funny how life works, isn’t it?

  2. Jennifer (Conversion Diary)
    February 13th, 2009 @ 12:20 pm

    I’ve been the “Jean” on more than one occasion, and am also haunted by it all. One of the things that makes me so mad is that all these supposedly pro-woman organizations showed about zero interest in giving women the full information about what was going on. Why aren’t they more willing to let women see the ultrasounds for themselves and show them accurate models of what fetuses look like at various stages? Do they think women are too emotional or unintelligent to handle accurate information about what’s going on with their bodies? Doesn’t seem like a very pro-woman stance to me.

  3. Kelly
    February 13th, 2009 @ 1:43 pm

    I have also been “Jean” and it haunts me everyday. I can still remember sitting outside and a protester came up to me,trying to convince me abortion was wrong. I kept telling the women I was not having the abortion, my friend was. The women was calm in her ways of expressing how I was just as wrong. As we were talking a staff member from the clinic came out and told me to come inside so I would not be “bothered” Guess what, I am bothered. I just told myself it was my friends choice and I had to support her. I don’t know how my friend feels about it today because she is still pro-choice, I am not. We don’t talk about it.

  4. Carla
    February 13th, 2009 @ 1:59 pm

    Jennifer and Kelly,
    I am sorry for your experiences as Jean. I tried to talk my sister and my sis in law into abortions after mine.(to somehow justify it)Thank God I have 2 beautiful nephews today.

    I know Jean thought she was doing what was best for me. I believe she had my best interests at heart. She was there for me and stayed with me. I am grateful for that. Unfortunately that was not exactly the support or help I needed at the time. Her letter to me healed my soul in a way I cannot describe. Forgiveness is a beautiful thing.

  5. Carla
    February 13th, 2009 @ 2:01 pm

    MK,
    Life is pretty amazing. I agree. I don’t drink but could still go out with Jean. :)

  6. Kelly
    February 13th, 2009 @ 3:05 pm

    Carla, it is wonderful that you received such a heart felt letter from your friend. I also want to thank you for having the courage to speak out on your own experiences with abortion. I have had my share of experience with abortion, (more than my comment above) and maybe one day I will find the courage that you have to speak about what women can and do go through.
    Thank you for being a voice for women who can’t seem to find theirs when it comes to abortion.

    Thank you RT for this post.

  7. Carla
    February 13th, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

    You are welcome, Kelly. I do hope you find forgiveness as well. I have been receiving quite a few emails from women pouring out their hearts to me about their abortion regret. I am so glad to be there for them in what can seem a very lonely walk. Finding out we are not alone gives us the courage to tell our stories.

    God bless you. I will be praying for you.

    OH. Thank you RT for the posts. :)

  8. Jody L.
    February 13th, 2009 @ 7:08 pm

    There is hope, thank God.

  9. Carla
    February 13th, 2009 @ 9:44 pm

    There is hope and healing, Jody L. If you or someone you know is struggling after their abortion please call the National Helpline for Abortion Recovery 1-866-482-LIFE or go to NationalHelpline.org

    You can absolutely get in touch with me as well!! :)

    There are so many of us out here. Waiting to reach out to others that feel the same pain of abortion regret.

  10. Eren O'Del
    February 14th, 2009 @ 9:41 am

    This is a very sad story. I feel for Carla if she had in fact been pressured to have an abortion against her own wishes. I don’t want to undermine what Carla went through, and I understand that she has deep regrets. However, I would like to point out that this is only one out of many “post-abortion” stories that women go through, and it is exactly the type of scenario that pro-life advocates use to make their case.

    With all due respect, let me make an argument for the other side.

    I know a woman; let’s call her Kim. When she was about 22, she became pregnant with the child of a man she had been dating for about 4 or 5 months. They were still in love, so they decided to get married and have the child. That man graduated from med school and became a doctor. Kim has never had to work a day in her life. Dream come true right?

    Wrong. Fast forward to a few years later, and Kim is stuck in an unhappy marriage with a kid she wishes she never had. She stays in the marriage for the sake of the child; since her husband is a doctor he can provide for the family. Kim fears that she won’t be able to raise her daughter on her own since she has no real work experience, and thus, she remains married to her husband.

    Kim cheats on her husband often. When he goes out of town, she’ll place her daughter in the care of one of her friends and run off with one of her lovers. I know this because my good friend has had to take care of Kim’s daughter on several occasions. What a good mother huh?

    Kim has said on her blog (which she has since taken down) that she is unhappy, that she feels trapped, and that having a kid has only complicated her situation by making it so that she can’t leave. She feels that being a mother during her “prime” took away from other experiences she could have had. She never got to travel. She wanted to go to grad school but couldn’t. While she never explicitly says that she regrets having a child (what mother would?) she implies it.

    Let’s examine the case of my other friend, who we’ll call Annie. Annie has had two abortions and does not give it a second thought. Because she was never “trapped” by motherhood, she never felt obligated to stay with a man she didn’t love. She has never had to limit her finances and experiences to accomodate raising a child. As a result, Annie is now engaged to the love of her life, finishing up a degree in nursing, socially active, and happy as a clam.

    A lot of pro-life advocates like to ask, “What if YOUR mother had had an abortion?” Why do they never ask, “What if Ted Bundy’s mother had had an abortion?”

    I’m sure you would all agree that the world would have been better off if any serial killer’s mother had had an abortion. Do pro-life advocates ever ask themselves what happens to children who are born into families that don’t want them? Abuse, neglect, and various other forms of mistreatment. Obviously there are exceptions, but psychologists and sociologists generally agree that a serial killer is the product of a poor upbringing that usually includes abuse. What are some reasons a parent might do a not-so-great job of raising their child? Could not wanting a child in the first place have anything to do with it?

    Now let me talk about my own upbringing. I was raised in a loving home, by parents who taught me manners and morals. They encouraged my to pursue hobbies and to continue my education after high school. You Christians may think that my pro-life stance makes me a deplorable person, but I have many friends who would say otherwise. The fact that I have people in my life who care about me and love me is a testament that I turned out to be a relatively decent human being. This all goes back to the way my parents raised me. There was no way that I could have turned into a serial killer.

    So the answer to the question “What if YOUR mother had had an abortion?” is this: she wouldn’t have. It’s obvious to me that she loved me, and wanted to have me. If she had contemplated having an abortion while pregnant with me, but didn’t, there’s a good chance that I might not have turned out to be the happy, confident person that I am today. But my mother never had any doubts about whether she wanted to have children and so, raised me well.

    I know there are exceptions. I know there are plenty of women who have abortions and regret it, like Carla. I also know there are also plenty of women who didn’t want kids, accidentally got pregnant, had the kid anyway, and turned out to be a wonderful parent who loved the child more than anything. But these are not the only two possibilities.

    This is why I love the term pro-choice. It gives you the freedom to do what you want!

    I will probably get bombarded with comments on how I don’t value human life and what not. Well, let me just say that I don’t believe that life begins at conception. It is a fact that fetuses spontaneously abort themselves (ever hear of a miscarriage?) for various reasons. It also happens more often than you might realize – for instance, the woman didn’t know she was pregnant, so when the fetus aborted, the woman assumed it was an irregular cycle. If God had such a problem with abortion, why would he allow it to happen naturally?

    And the fact is, I DO value human life. I love my life. I love my family, I love my friends, and they love me. I think that women should have the choice about what to do with their own bodies, and that if they do not want a child, they shouldn’t bring it into the world and allow it to suffer abuse and neglect. If a woman wishes to have a child, she had better make sure it is what she really wants, and raise the child with love.

  11. Eren O'Del
    February 14th, 2009 @ 10:01 am

    By the way, I am not implying that if Carla had had Aubrey, that she would have turned out to be a horrible mother. I’m sure Carla would have been a great mother and would have loved her daughter with all her heart. But she may have also had regrets. She may have been forced to keep in contact with Aubrey’s father, or abandon her education. You just never know. I have no doubt that Carla is a wonderful parent to her 4 children, but it seems to me that she also had them when she was good and ready. Sorry if my posts have offended.

  12. harriet
    February 14th, 2009 @ 10:22 am

    here’s a helpful perspective: an individual’s life is a journey. Say you’re going to another city; you are on your journey when you leave your home. You would not set an arbitrary point- like the end of the block, 10 miles on, or when you cross the county line to determine the journey’s beginning. So an individual’s life begins at conception and continues to death, whether that’s 8 months prenatal or 101 years. And biology says individual life begins upon conception. So- call a spade a spade. In our country unwanted individuals are legally killed.

  13. harriet
    February 14th, 2009 @ 10:29 am

    I mean to say, the issue is not really about “God” or “choice”. This is the issue: in our society should people be legally put to death by the choice of other people?

  14. Eren O'Del
    February 14th, 2009 @ 10:33 am

    Do you support the death penalty? Do you believe that Ted Bundy deserved to die for his crimes? I’ve read the Bible, and I remember there was a law that says adulterers should be stoned to death. Do you believe that God wrote or inspired men to write the Bible?

    But, like I said, the argument stems from whether we believe life begins at conception. I think that if a fetus were truly “alive,” then it would have an instinct to fight for its own survival. Thus, fetuses would not spontaneously abort themselves.

  15. Matthew in Fairfax
    February 14th, 2009 @ 11:18 am

    Why do they never ask, “What if Ted Bundy’s mother had had an abortion?”

    I think you are better off avoiding the term ‘never’. Here are examples of a comparable discussion among pro-life advocates regarding a post at NRO Corner (apparently no longer available) about a World War I soldier who had a chance to kill Hitler long before Hitler’s rise to power:

    http://markshea.blogspot.com/2004/11/if-previous-post-did-not-make-clear.html

    http://markshea.blogspot.com/2004/11/mothers-of-hizbullah-eager-to-sacrifice.html

    Also, see the lengthy follow-ups in the comments boxes.

    I suspect you can find additional discussions by searching for the terms ‘principle of double effect’ and ‘Machiavellianism’.

  16. Anon A. Mouse
    February 14th, 2009 @ 11:45 am

    “…in our society should people be legally put to death by the choice of other people?”

    The answer is a simple YES. Roe vs. Wade.

    You can legally have an abortion. If you believe abortion is killing, then yes, you can legally kill the unborn child. The majority of people in this country voted to have this law via their respective representative.

    Drinking is also legal! Lots of people don’t like it, especially the orthys, but it is the law. It’s the law because of the majority vote. Drinking and driving kills, no doubt about it, so why don’t you go protest at your local liquor store? I guess some of you probably would.

    If you don’t like the law, lobby to have it changed, but leave the pro-choicers, who are within the law, to do as the law prescribes, if that is their choice. AND IT IS THEIR CHOICE!!! NOT YOURS to make for them. As long as it remains the law.

    God forbid the law ever changes and Roe Vs. Wade is overturned, because then we will be losing women and children BOTH to the back-alley quack. Because abortions will still happen.

    It is the same as the needles given to drug addicts. They will still use drugs no matter what, but at least giving them clean needles keeps the spread of aids in check. A VERY necessary evil.

    Legalized abortion is yet another legalized and necessary evil. Bottom line, it IS legal!

  17. Carla
    February 14th, 2009 @ 11:47 am

    Hi Erin,
    Abortion was legalized under several assumptions. One was that it would “reduce” poverty, child abuse and neglect. I have seen for myself how that’s working out. We have devalued life from the conception to natural death.

    So what I hear you saying is choosing to kill a child at any point in pregnancy is a good thing on the chance that the mother might “feel trapped” and abuse the child? So we must kill the children before they are abused. Let us blame the helpless child for our own feelings about how our lives have turned out.

    The term choice lets us focus on the act of choosing instead of what is being chosen. Sucking a growing child from the womb of its mother. Brilliant plan. Hijack the word CHOICE.

    I appreciate all that you have written and love how you were gentle with me and my story.(That is not always the case, my dear)

    God bless,
    Carla

  18. Carla
    February 14th, 2009 @ 11:47 am

    I misspelled your name Eren. Sorry.

  19. Carla
    February 14th, 2009 @ 12:01 pm

    Hi again Eren,
    Because you don’t believe a new life is created at conception does that make it so? Exactly WHAT IS IT? Before a woman even realizes she is pregnant all of the parts are there, the heart is beating.
    What does abortion do besides kill a child? Someone that was once living and growing has been killed deliberately by an abortionist.
    My third child died. Jamie’s heat no longer beat and I delivered him into my hand. Perfectly formed and beautifully human. You do not see a difference between that and forcefully dilating a woman’s cervix, suctioning a child out with a vacuum and then piecing all of the parts of that child together to make sure the abortionist “got it all?” OR stabbing a child in the back of the head after delivering it up to the neck and suctioning it’s brains out?

    God used the death of Jamie to lead me to the truth of what abortion is and what it does.

    If you have children of your own I am sure you have seen the ultrasound. What is it you are looking at but your own flesh and blood?

  20. frustrated(mk)
    February 14th, 2009 @ 12:38 pm

    Kim is stuck in an unhappy marriage with a kid she wishes she never had.

    Then I guess Kim should have kept her clothes on. You talk of choice. Kim made hers. That’s the way it works. Annie killed two of her own children because she thought sex was more important than her own kids lives. Kim lives in an unhappy marriage and hates her kid, because she too thought sex was more important than her own childs life.

    So what you’re saying is sex is SO important, so incredible, so huge…that it is worth more than human lives.

    Great argument.

    Not.

  21. frustrated(mk)
    February 14th, 2009 @ 12:43 pm

    I think that women should have the choice about what to do with their own bodies, (YEAH LIKE WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD HAVE SEX)and that if they do not want a child, they shouldn’t bring it into the world (DON’T YOU MEAN SHOULDN’T HAVE SEX) and allow it to suffer abuse and neglect. If a woman wishes to have (SEX) a child, she had better make sure it is what she really wants, and (THAT SHE UNDERSTANDS THAT SEX MAKES BABIES AND IF SHE HAS SEX SHE MIGHT HAVE A BABY) and raise the child with love

  22. harriet
    February 14th, 2009 @ 2:53 pm

    *The Bundy/condemned criminal comparison: when a person commits a capital crime, they in effect “choose” their own death. (Personally I believe it’s wrong for society to kill anyone; I would be happier with using the death penalty if not for the unfortunate fact that the criminal’s $$ for defense usually determines the outcome except in sensationally henious and undeniable crimes such as the Bundy murders).
    *The notion that it (abortion) should be legal because some people think : a. it’s not really human; b. it’s not really alive; or c. it’s better for all concerned if it’s dead : Logically, following such arguments,(let’s say regarding murder) if you felt that people who had no sense of humor were not really human then you should be able to kill such “people”- if you really felt you had to. If you truly believed that your passed out drunk family member wasn’t (at the moment) really alive you could choose to kill them (and ti would surely be better for all concerned)
    Anyway, our society has a plethora of laws that do not depend on individual opinions of right and wrong. Good thing

  23. Suzy
    February 14th, 2009 @ 3:27 pm

    I feel so sad for the women that are haunted by their experiences of abortion yet in many cases, find little acceptance of their trauma from those who are pro-choice.
    As a Christian I feel so moved to reach out to the many girls and women who (although seldom realised) suffer for years after having an abortion.
    Abortion has sadly become such a “norm” in society that women can almost be made to feel abnormal for suffering after having their abortion.
    When I pray for the unborn I always pray for the mother too who is just as valuble and loved by God as her child.

  24. Eren O'Del
    February 14th, 2009 @ 5:34 pm

    Anon,

    Thanks for the post. I would like to elaborate on this argument. Can we really stop anybody from doing something they want just by making it illegal? From what we all know about illegal drug use, the answer is no. So, as Anon pointed out, there is no way we can stop a woman from having an abortion if she absolutely feels like she must have one, or does not want to be a mother. Which means that if a woman does have an abortion, it should be under the care and expertise of a physician. It is a necessary evil.

    Carla,

    I don’t think my belief that life doesn’t begin at conception is the same as saying partial-birth abortion is okay. I realize that for pro-life advocates it is a very black and white issue: either a child is living in the womb or not. I don’t think a fertilized egg is a living thing. I do, however, think that by the time a woman gets to her third trimester her unborn child is indeed living. It is my (unprofessional) opinion that life happens in stages, and that below a certain level of development a fetus is not really alive. Obviously this is a gray area that many of you will have a problem with. I believe that for the most part, if one chooses to have an abortion it would make the most sense to do so as early as possible, BEFORE it has developed into a living thing.

    But, for the sake of argument let’s just say that you guys are right, and life does begin at conception. I still contend that it is better to “kill” the unborn child than to cause it a lifetime of pain and misery by being brought up in a household where it is not wanted. I’m sure Carla and many other mothers don’t fit the bill here. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other women that do.

    Frustrated,

    Your personal moral code does not apply to all. You think that these women should have to pay the consequences for their actions, fine. But what about their children? You are, in a sense, saying that Kim’s daughter deserves to be brought up by a mother who doesn’t love her because the condom fell off one night?

    Personally, I think it is far more irresponsible to bring a child into the world when you are not fully prepared to do so, than it is to be sexually promiscuous.

    Harriet,

    No offense, but your insistence that it is wrong for someone’s life to be taken away at the hands of another makes your statement “I would be happier with using the death penalty if not for the unfortunate fact…” makes you a hypocrite. Either it is wrong to kill someone or not. You consider abortion to be a black and white situation, and I agree that this supports the notion that it is NEVER okay to take away someone else’s life. But you seem to tolerate the gray areas concerning taking away the life of a criminal. Why would it matter if they are a criminal? It’s still a human life right?

    You believe that “when a person commits a capital crime, they in effect ‘choose’ their own death.” You are saying murderers have to pay the consequences of their actions. You would probably argue that an unborn baby is helpless and should not have to pay the consequences for its mother’s actions. But what do you define as consequences? You consider an abortion to be an unfair consequence. I happen to consider a poor upbringing by a young, unprepared and typically uneducated mother, to be a worse consequence.

    And to everyone else that wishes to say, “Well, why doesn’t the mother give birth and then put the baby up for adoption?” I would agree that this is the best solution. But for some reason it doesn’t seem to work that way. I don’t want to speak with too much authority about the adoption process because I don’t know much about it, but I’ve heard that it takes forever. In any case, it isn’t as easy as just handing a child over to an agency and POOF! it ends up in the hands of a loving family. I do wish more young women would take the adoption route, but I don’t know how difficult or easy that route is. Anyway, that’s just my two cents. Taking off for the weekend, will check responses when I get back.

  25. Eren O'Del
    February 14th, 2009 @ 5:42 pm

    Carla,

    Again, I don’t wish to undermine your personal tragedy. I think in the end it boils down to this: abortion isn’t for everybody. The fact that you are still haunted by what happened is a clear indicator that abortion was the wrong choice for you, and many other women who experienced what you went through. But not every woman will share that particular experience.

    Okay, I’m really going now.

  26. Lily
    February 14th, 2009 @ 6:06 pm

    Actually, Eren, adoption is that easy, or would be if there were any babies to adopt. The only reason it takes so long today is that there are too few infants available for adoption. There are waiting lists for all children except the older one– even for children with handicaps. Why do you think that couples have been dashing off to China to adopt their unwanted girls and to South America where there are so many poor who are willing to give up their children for the last 15-20 (maybe more)?

    I am also puzzling over your belief that a child is not alive until the third trimester. What has been kicking the woman since week 17 or 18 (that’s 4-5 months) of her pregnancy? By the way, there is a reason that women will often start talking to the baby, playing music, etc. The baby, oops, the unalive thing, can hear.

    Some more developmental milestones from Medline plus:

    Weeks 4-5
    Further development of the heart which now beats at a regular rhythm

    Movement of rudimentary blood through the main vessels

    Week 6

    Brain continues to form
    Lungs begin to form

    Weeks 9-12

    Genitals appear well differentiated
    Red blood cells are produced in the liver
    The baby can make a fist with its fingers
    Tooth buds appear for the baby teeth

    (www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm)

    It is alive, Eren. It is a human. It can’t be anything else. It will never turn into a dog. It will never turn into a gerbil or a giraffe. It will only continue to develop in the same way every other human ever born on this planet develops.

  27. Pikemann Urge
    February 14th, 2009 @ 6:54 pm

    A slightly peripheral point: drinking can lead to disaster, but should we ban it? No, but we should drink safely and responsibly (unless you’re a Muslim in which case you don’t drink at all).

    Sex can lead to unwanted pregnancy and the complications that arise from it, but should we abstain? I don’t know why it is, but the strongest religions are the ones that preach abstinence (on the surface…).

    I wonder why people find it a badge of honour to restrict their love of life. There is a certain prestige in suffering, isn’t there? And self-pity helps us pray, too. Should we also praise constipation, starvation and shallow breathing?

    IMHO, sexual attraction only isn’t the best of reasons to sleep with someone. I think you’ll be happier if you also have a romantic connection as well.

  28. Carla
    February 14th, 2009 @ 8:36 pm

    Eren,
    I appreciate your compassion in saying what you want to say. I am not Haunted. That is the title of the post by RT. Someone once said to me, “Abortion sounds like it was hard for you. Maybe you shouldn’t have had one.”
    Little late for that sentiment, huh???

    I am healing from a horrifying experience. I am joining the thousands of women and men who share the same horrifying experience of having our children killed by abortion.

    God bless, Eren.

  29. Carla
    February 14th, 2009 @ 10:26 pm

    Eren,
    I guess I am trying to follow your logic to its ultimate conclusion. If children “might” be abused, neglected or may live in poverty we should kill them. If children right now are being abused, neglected or living in poverty we should kill them too. After all, who wants to see all of them suffer so???
    I suppose we should just throw in all of the starving children. Yes. We should rid ourselves of them too.

    Also,
    What has led you to the conclusion that sperm and egg meet and that is not a living thing…..but somehow during the 3rd trimester the fetus becomes a living thing?

  30. Carla
    February 14th, 2009 @ 11:02 pm

    Suzy,
    What a sweet, sweet comment. Believe it or not fellow believers have sometimes been the ones that have not understood. Before I told anyone a lot of my friends talked abortion with such contempt. I stayed silent and ashamed for years. Their harsh judgment of “those kinds of women who would have an abortion” did nothing to speak love to this hurting soul.

    God bless you, Suzy.

  31. harriet
    February 14th, 2009 @ 11:59 pm

    I’m sorry if I seemed hypocritical.
    Actually, what seems hypocritical to me is, the straw-man sort of argument that it’s all about some people imposing their morality upon others- distracting from the heart of the issue: the arbitrary, legalized killing of innocent people.
    As I said, I personally oppose the death penalty- to me the legalized execution of ANYONE is horrific. However, I can understand that (theoretically) this could be legitimate in a perfect world- and in this imperfect world it happens.. I don’t know about laws… everyone has the freedom to do whatever regardless of legality. But (IMHO) God have mercy on our country. It’s really up to each one of us. I’ve seen a lot and it seems to me, hardness of heart leads to emptiness and sorrow; kindness and compassion leads to joy. And a legal choice that brings death to others isn’t good.
    Also, our Nation has so many laws based partially or entirely on morality.

  32. Suzy
    February 15th, 2009 @ 5:55 am

    I’m so sorry that you found such lack of understanding from Christians Carla. That really saddens me.
    To me it’s even worse for Christians behave like that towards women than it is for any one else.
    The way I see it is, we are simply asked to love others like Jesus did.
    By loving we can’t ever harm another person.
    We all have things we need to be forgiven for. One thing that always stands out for me is how Jesus was always so kind to those who sought his love no matter what had happened in their past. Self righteousness was the one sin he rebuked the most.
    God Bless :0)

  33. frustrated(mk)
    February 15th, 2009 @ 7:48 am

    Personally, I think it is far more irresponsible to bring a child into the world when you are not fully prepared to do so, than it is to be sexually promiscuous.

    You really don’t see the irony here? If a person wasn’t PROMISCUOUS to begin with, there would BE NO unwanted pregnancies!

    Your personal moral code does not apply to all. You think that these women should have to pay the consequences for their actions, fine

    You’re kidding right? This has NOTHING to do with a MORAL CODE. I didn’t make the rules. You have sex, you get pregnant. Nothing moral about it. I think it’s called science.

    These women aren’t “paying” anything. They CHOSE to have sex and a CONSEQUENCE of sex, is PREGNANCY. Good Lord, you are giving me way too much credit if you think I can make them “pay” for having sex. IT JUST HAPPENS!

  34. frustrated(mk)
    February 15th, 2009 @ 7:57 am

    Pikeman,

    Read carefully here…sex gets you pregnant. No one is advocating NO SEX. What I AM advocating is no sex UNLESS you are prepared for the NATURAL consequence of the act.

    If you are willing and able to take care of any child/children that result from the act, then carry on.

    If you are not, then you should abstain.

    If you are not prepared to go to jail for killing someone while driving drunk, then don’t drive drunk.

    If you are not prepared to be obese, then don’t overeat.

    If you are not prepared to have your teeth fall out, then brush.

    Can people drink? OF course! But they should ABSTAIN from driving while under the influence. This is called RESPONSIBLE drinking. I don’t hear a hue and cry about being asked to abstain from drunk driving!!!!

    Can people have sex? Of course! But they should ABSTAIN from doing so IRRESPONSIBLY. IE: if they aren’t prepared for the CONSEQUENCES.

    Pregnancy is a NATURAL result of sex. Why is this so hard?

  35. frustrated(mk)
    February 15th, 2009 @ 8:01 am

    Eren,

    Safe Haven law, also known in some states as Baby Moses law, is the popular name for United States laws that decriminalize leaving unharmed infants with statutorily designated private persons so that the child becomes a ward of the state. “Safe Haven” laws typically let parents remain nameless to the court, often using a numbered bracelet system as the only means of linking the baby to the mother. [1] Some States treat safe haven surrenders as child dependency or abandonment, with a complaint being filed for such in juvenile court. The parent either defaults or answers the complaint. Other States treat safe haven surrenders as adoption surrenders, hence a waiver of parental rights (see parental responsibility).

    It doesn’t get much EASIER than that!

  36. Carla
    February 15th, 2009 @ 8:15 am

    Dear Suzy,
    Amen. Thank you for your kind words. Hearts will be won by love. I have seen it happen. To myself and others. I was a broken woman and the choices I saw before me were suicide(I failed in that attempt)or Jesus. He drew me to Himself with His everlasting love. His cross spoke mercy over me. I am forgiven and set free.

    Carla

    I love Suzy and MK!!

  37. Renee
    February 15th, 2009 @ 7:00 pm

    “Pregnancy is a NATURAL result of sex. Why is this so hard?”

    Yeah, they’re called reproductive organs for a reason, but today’s society doesn’t really value any form of fertility. Every culture has a form of fertility rite, except for today. Procreation has been pretty much severed from anything sexual, even though biologically our sex drive is driven by the natural condition to mate to make babies.

    People claim to worship science, but when it comes to the ‘birds and the bees’ we like to rewrite the book about sexuality to the immediate wants and gratification of adults compared to the result children who have needs. People forget if people didn’t procreate, there would be no need for sexuality in the first place in terms of biological understanding.

    Today an adult values him/herself over anyone else, but we tend to forget are not conceived as adults. Rather we are conceived as one cell organisms and birthed as helpless creatures when we are born completely dependent on those will to obligate themselves to guiding us into maturity. One can not enjoy the pleasures of adulthood, if it weren’t for others to sacrifice themselves to parent. We fail to acknowledge that.

  38. Renee
    February 15th, 2009 @ 9:28 pm

    I would like to comment more on Eren’s initial post of the two women she knew. These examples are common today, we all know a couples of ‘Kims’ and ‘Annies’ if not ourselves being in these situations at some point in our own lives.

    Anyways there has always been discussion of happiness, and the differences between joy and pleasure. The problem when we value pleasure to the point that we see any happiness we receive through sexuality to be more like an immediate high and we become sort of oxytocin drug addicts looking for our next fix.

    Abortion is much like the concept of unilateral no-fault divorce, which allows one to forget about personal responsibility to our spouse rather then our child, and make a quick escape from obligations to him or her. Now we’ve all had our share of being a guest at a wedding, where we bear witness to support a couples marriage. What is sad though for any newlywed couple, one could walk into court to have their vows disregarded and go on their way and everyone pretends like nothing happened.

    Now current moral standards may argue one shouldn’t stay in an unhappy marriage. Well marriage isn’t about being happy all of the time. That’s why we use to make a big deal about the vows and support couples when they struggled. My husband and I use to help out at the marriage preparation weekend at our parish, married couples didn’t talk about how great it was to be married, instead we talked about our struggles and dealing with the times that weren’t that fun. Dealing with the struggles is worth it, I could have easily walked out of my own marriage as could my husband but we come around and find a real solution to the concern.

    And even if you never get married or have a child life one way another will throw something at you to deal with, like parents getting ill. Parents (or even an aunt or uncle) sooner or later will find themselves with something, and it’s us the adult children who step up, whether it be a stroke, a heart attack, liver failure, or the joys of handling an in-law with Alzheimer’s.

  39. frustrated(mk)
    February 15th, 2009 @ 9:56 pm

    Excellent comment, Renee…

  40. Pikemann Urge
    February 16th, 2009 @ 4:41 am

    Frustrated #34, yes, you make a good point and prevention is better than cure. It’s one step closer to making the very idea of abortion completely moot.

    And I think that if people are caring and supportive in general, then their friends who have accidental (or not) pregancies won’t feel any burden associated with it, even if they’re not ready.

    But pregnancy isn’t the only consequence of sex. Disease is another. So both of those need to be looked at very seriously. They aren’t and that’s why we have problems. People think it’s cute not to care about their wellbeing – until they’re unwell.

    IMHO sex should be like wine: you don’t drink to get smashed, you get drink to enjoy the beverage. But get an acquired taste, don’t force it down (oops, possible sexual joke there!).

  41. Lily
    February 16th, 2009 @ 7:44 am

    Well, to torture the analogy, you shouldn’t drink any alcoholic beverage, until you are legally able to do so. Just so, you shouldn’t have sex, until you are able to deal with the natural outcome of sex appropriately. Appropriately never includes deliberately killing said result.

  42. Renee
    February 16th, 2009 @ 8:05 am

    Frustrated, I would recommend the blog “Hug the Monkey”, the blog concerning how the sexual hormone oxytocin affects our relationships. The author of the blog is coming out with a book. I’m looking forward to reading.

    It’s a good companion piece to anyone trying to understand what it means to love, whether it be a sexual partner, a child, or even a parent. The hormone creates emotional feeling, that many people are simply think they can will themselves out of. A lot of people like to disconnect the connection between sex and child bearing, no one wants to think of their parents having sex. It’s just easier to wish them well on their wedding anniversary rather they thanking them for having sex nine months prior to your birth. Biologically, sex and birth/babies/parenting go very much together.

    Understanding this connection should be essence of sex education, not just a message of either ‘don’t do it’ or ‘be safe’.

    The blog

    http://www.hugthemonkey.com/

  43. frustrated(mk)
    February 16th, 2009 @ 8:43 am

    Renee,

    Wow! That’s a LOT of info. Did the women who runs that blog, write the book? She looks all of 15! lol. That was really interesting. Do you have more links that I can reference (Cite your sources and all that). I’d like to do a post on this on my blog…

  44. Renee
    February 16th, 2009 @ 8:56 am

    She’s done a lot of research on her blog collecting information, all cited, so if you utilize her be sure to give her a hat tip. I really like her posts on why women feel differently about sex, then men. A man and woman respond differently to sexual activity, no matter culturally we may want them to be the same. Both men and women need to understand that when learning about mature relationships.

  45. frustrated(mk)
    February 16th, 2009 @ 8:57 am

    Pikeman,

    Thank you. Yes, the problem really comes down to responsibility. Owning your actions. We live in a society where nothing is “our fault” and it’s very dangerous.

    I am by no means advocating giving up sex. I AM advocating giving up irresponsible sex.

    I mean, when you get right down to it, there is no greater act that a person can perform, and no greater result, than a new life. If we can treat creating human life like a “sport”, we have really digressed as a society. When “feeling good” takes precedence over EVERYTHING, including whether or not another person has the right to live, we’ve sunk very low indeed.

    You’re right. STD’S are just one more reason to rethink what the sexual act really means.

    Of course, I would prefer that all sexual acts were reserved for couples that are married, as fidelity and marriage would completely eliminate STDs and greatly reduce if not eradicate unwanted pregnancies, but I understand that we can’t “go back” as easily as we can go forward. Sans that tho, surely we can “own” our actions and rethink this whole notion that it is my RIGHT to have sex as often and with whomever, I please. Sex is a privilege, not a right. It is a gift, just as new life is. Without even asking who or what the gift is from, we can still afford it all the respect and awe that it deserves…

  46. Renee
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:45 am

    Frustrated,

    Another site of interest would be for the Program Teen STAR (Sexuality Teaching in the context of Adult Responsibility).

    http://www.teenstarprogram.org/index.asp

    I love their slogan.. “We know what doesn’t work — “preaching” abstinence, “promoting” condoms. “

  47. frustrated(mk)
    February 16th, 2009 @ 10:03 am

    Renee,

    Is that like NFP for Teens? If so, I LOVE IT!

  48. Carla
    February 16th, 2009 @ 2:48 pm

    I thought NFP was for married couples?

  49. Eren O'Del
    February 16th, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

    I can’t respond to each individual comment, so here is my general response to everyone:

    Contrary to what you may believe about pro-choicers, we as a group are not gleeful “baby killers” armed with coat hangers waiting to surprise attack pregnant young women. We are fully aware that abortion is not an ideal solution, and should be used sparingly. We don’t hate children. We are simply people who respect the woman’s right to make decisions about her own body. Is that so hard to comprehend?

    I think in most cases abortion is a last resort for a very desperate woman. I feel sorry for any woman that’s had to deal with this difficult decision. But I still think she has the final say on what she does with her own body.

    I said that I think adoption is the best solution to the problem, and I stand by this statement. If it really is that easy for a woman to give up her baby for adoption, then it is tragic that more women don’t consider this option. However, a woman may still have reasons for not wanting to carry out her pregnancy to term. Maybe she lives with abusive fanatical parents who would punish her severely when she begins to show. Maybe they would kick her out and she would have no place to live. Maybe she was raped. Maybe her reasons could even be as selfish as not wanting to get fat and have stretch marks. We can’t examine every situation in which a woman would consider having an abortion. In any case, it is her choice. As long as the baby is still inside her, it is hers to do with as she likes.

    I never said we should go around killing kids that live with abusive parents. (That is the problem with extremist types. They will take what someone with an opposing view says and blow it way out of proportion to make their point.) I was merely saying that an abortion would have prevented that situation in the first place. After a child is born it has the same rights as any other human that is out of the womb.

    Believe it or not, there are some situations where even pro-life advocates would be okay with a woman having an abortion. If the fetus is causing harm to the mother it should be aborted. Some consider rape to be an acceptable reason to have an abortion. Some might even say that if the baby showed severe abnormalities, such as siamese twins or a deadly incurable disease, then it would be better to have an abortion. In any case, you people do find abortion acceptable as long as it fits a prescribed scenario. The only difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers is this: you guys want to dictate in which situations it would be okay for a woman to have an abortion, and we think the woman should get to make the choice.

    This is the last thing I’m going to say on the subject. I have finally realized that there is no point in arguing with theists, pro-lifers or other varieties of intolerant fanatics. I believe in debating for reasons that only open minded people would understand: intellectual discourse, seeing things from another point of view, and in the best situations, acknowledging that your opponent has a point.

    It is an extremely rare occasion that you would be able to change someone’s mind. My mind has not been changed, but that doesn’t mean I don’t see where pro-lifers are coming from. Why do they refuse to see where I’m coming from?

    Every time I post on a forum like this I try to show respect for other people’s opinions. No one can deny this. Even Carla thanked me for being gentle with her story. But what do I get in return? Scorn, contempt, attitude, preachiness. I know that not everyone who replied to me fits this description, but some of you do, and you do the same thing as religious fanatics on all the other forums where I hold a minority opinion.

    Your responses have only strengthened my own personal belief that we would all be better off if we were to rid the world of religion entirely. I say religion because most pro-life advocates happen to be the religious type who think God, not pregnant women, should get to decide what happens to unwanted babies.

    This is slightly off-topic, but I find it very interesting that theists believe we have free will when it comes to whether we accept or reject God, yet we have no free will regarding anything else. As Christians I think most of you would agree that the most important decision you can make in your life is the decision to accept Christ (which, by the way, entails loving your enemy and not placing judgment on others). So why is it that choices which are relatively mundane in comparison (such as the right to choose) are not ours to make? Something to think about.

  50. Eren O'Del
    February 16th, 2009 @ 3:50 pm

    I can’t respond to each individual comment, so here is my general response to everyone:

    Contrary to what you may believe about pro-choicers, we as a group are not gleeful “baby killers” armed with coat hangers waiting to surprise attack pregnant young women. We are fully aware that abortion is not an ideal solution, and should be used sparingly. We don’t hate children. We are simply people who respect the woman’s right to make decisions about her own body. Is that so hard to comprehend?

    I think in most cases abortion is a last resort for a very desperate woman. I feel sorry for any woman that’s had to deal with this difficult decision. But I still think she has the final say on what she does with her own body.

    I said that I think adoption is the best solution to the problem, and I stand by this statement. If it really is that easy for a woman to give up her baby for adoption, then it is tragic that more women don’t consider this option. However, a woman may still have reasons for not wanting to carry out her pregnancy to term. Maybe she lives with abusive fanatical parents who would punish her severely when she begins to show. Maybe they would kick her out and she would have no place to live. Maybe she was raped. Maybe her reasons could even be as selfish as not wanting to get fat and have stretch marks. We can’t examine every situation in which a woman would consider having an abortion. In any case, it is her choice. As long as the baby is still inside her, it is hers to do with as she likes.

    I never said we should go around killing kids that live with abusive parents. (That is the problem with extremist types. They will take what someone with an opposing view says and blow it way out of proportion to make their point.) I was merely saying that an abortion would have prevented that situation in the first place. After a child is born it has the same rights as any other human that is out of the womb.

    Believe it or not, there are some situations where even pro-life advocates would be okay with a woman having an abortion. If the fetus is causing harm to the mother it should be aborted. Some consider rape to be an acceptable reason to have an abortion. Some might even say that if the baby showed severe abnormalities, such as siamese twins or a deadly incurable disease, then it would be better to have an abortion. In any case, you people do find abortion acceptable as long as it fits a prescribed scenario. The only difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers is this: you guys want to dictate in which situations it would be okay for a woman to have an abortion, and we think the woman should get to make the choice.

    This is the last thing I’m going to say on the subject. I have finally realized that there is no point in arguing with theists, pro-lifers or other varieties of intolerant fanatics. I believe in debating for reasons that only open minded people would understand: intellectual discourse, seeing things from another point of view, and in the best situations, acknowledging that your opponent has a point.

    It is an extremely rare occasion that you would be able to change someone’s mind. My mind has not been changed, but that doesn’t mean I don’t see where pro-lifers are coming from. Why do they refuse to see where I’m coming from?

    Every time I post on a forum like this I try to show respect for other people’s opinions. No one can deny this. Even Carla thanked me for being gentle with her story. But what do I get in return? Scorn, contempt, attitude, preachiness. I know that not everyone who replied to me fits this description, but some of you do, and you do the same thing as religious fanatics on all the other forums where I hold a minority opinion.

    Your responses have only strengthened my own personal belief that we would all be better off if we were to rid the world of religion entirely. I say religion because most pro-life advocates happen to be the religious type who think God, not pregnant women, should get to decide what happens to unwanted babies.

    This is slightly off-topic, but I find it very interesting that theists believe we have free will when it comes to whether we accept or reject God, yet we have no free will regarding anything else. As Christians I think most of you would agree that the most important decision you can make in your life is the decision to accept Christ (which, by the way, entails loving your enemy and not placing judgment on others). So why is it that choices which are relatively mundane in comparison (such as drugs, premarital sex, suicide and the right to choose) are not ours to make? Something to think about.

  51. Erin
    February 16th, 2009 @ 4:03 pm

    Eren,

    Who says we don’t have free will to do anything that we want? That is how God created us. If you really want to understand theology, and the thinking of Christians, you have a lot of studying to do.
    You think you can sum up the philosophy and the thinking of brilliant men and women of the last 2000 years? You think you know something they did not?

  52. nile
    February 16th, 2009 @ 4:36 pm

    It was mentioned here that an all-knowing God and free-will cannot exist together. It has been proven many times, but no theist wants to understand. They give examples of prediction, which is not the same as knowing.

    Here it is, once again: If the outcome of the choice is definitely known (NOT PREDICTED)prior to the decision, then there is no choice. If God gives us choices ABCD, and He definitely knows that we will choose C, and we actually choose C, then there is no free will. If we choose D, then God doesn’t know – He is not all-knowing.

    So the two cannot exist together. Either God is not all-knowing, or we don’t have free will.

  53. Carla
    February 16th, 2009 @ 4:37 pm

    Hi Eren,
    Prolifers aren’t fanatics or extremists who kidnap young pregnant girls and hold them hostage for 9 months.

    I read every word you wrote. I thought about it. I can agree to disagree with you.

    A woman’s body is her own to do what she wants with it. Sure. Get a tattoo. Drink like a fish. Pierce your ears.
    When it involves the growing life of a human child in her body I have a voice and I will use it.

    God bless you, Eren.

  54. Renee
    February 16th, 2009 @ 5:23 pm

    “I thought NFP was for married couples?”

    Teens learn about NFP, as a way to understand their sexuality. When I first learned about NFP, I wish knew it when I was 11. In my area they offer a mother daughter class.

  55. Carla
    February 16th, 2009 @ 7:21 pm

    Thank you, Renee. :)

  56. frustrated(mk)
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:03 pm

    Eren,

    Women give many reasons for having an abortion; the most frequent are that having a child (or another child) would interfere with their ability to care for their existing children, their work responsibilities or their education, and that they cannot afford a baby right now, according to “Reasons U.S. Women Have Abortions: Quantitative and Qualitative Perspectives,” by Lawrence B. Finer et al., of the Guttmacher Institute.

    In a recent survey of abortion patients at 11 provider sites around the country, the study authors identified concern for the children women already have as a key factor in their decision to terminate a pregnancy. The reasons women cited as “most important” are that they are not ready for a child or another child (25%), and they cannot afford a baby right now (23%). Nearly four in 10 women surveyed said they had already had all the children they wanted. The reasons women gave in 1987, the last year in which this survey was conducted, were similar.

    There you go. Just as I said. If you are not ready for the responsibility, don’t have sex.

    You can come up with the worst case scenarios all you want, but the bottom line is that most women have abortions because they are irresponsible. They have sex, knowing that they are not ready to accept the responsibility of having a new baby. Period.

    46% of women that get pregnant and have abortions, were NOT on birth control. Read that again. Were NOT on birth control.

    So tell me again how this is being responsible and they should have the right to kill another human being?

    Just as a drug addict will make excuses, just as an alcoholic will blame everyone but himself, just as any addict will lie and connive and twist the truth to get the next drink, make the next bet, smoke the next joint…so too will those addicted to sex, yes that’s right, addicted to sex…for how else could you explain someone doing something so selfish…do and say whatever they must in order to justify having sex. Even kill their own children, created solely to satisfy an itch. Sick.

  57. frustrated(mk)
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:03 pm

    Btw, that was from the Guttmacher site…

  58. frustrated(mk)
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:10 pm

    This is slightly off-topic, but I find it very interesting that theists believe we have free will when it comes to whether we accept or reject God, yet we have no free will regarding anything else.

    Does this apply to rape? To Pedophilia? To murder? What’s that you say? People aren’t allowed to do these things???? What happened to free will. Sure, you “atheists” talk a good game about being free to do what you want, but then you go around telling people they can’t kill each other, rape each other…

    (For the record, I don’t really feel that way about atheists…I was just turning the tables on the Christian accusations)

    The fact is that we have laws to protect the vulnerable in our society. From predators. If a woman having sex and then killing her child, the RESULT of HER actions, isn’t predatory behavior, then I don’t know what is.

    The truth is, you CAN rape. You CAN murder. You CAN have sex with small children. But then you pay the CONSEQUENCES. If abortion is illegal, then you go to a back alley and if that don’t work out for you, that is called a CONSEQUENCE. If you murder someone, rape someone, and get caught, you go to jail. That’s called a CONSEQUENCE.

    No interfering with free will. You can still choose to rape, murder or abort. But the choice will be different than it is now. You will have to pay a CONSEQUENCE. But it is still your CHOICE.

  59. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:12 pm

    Fast forward to a few years later, and Kim is stuck in an unhappy marriage with a kid she wishes she never had. She stays in the marriage for the sake of the child; since her husband is a doctor he can provide for the family. Kim fears that she won’t be able to raise her daughter on her own since she has no real work experience, and thus, she remains married to her husband.

    Eren, you can’t kill people to solve your problems. Kim was at least right to keep her baby. She is wrong to cheat on her husband and there is no excuse for that.

  60. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:15 pm

    Do you support the death penalty?

    We’re talking about innocent people, not hardened criminals who are a threat to society.

  61. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:17 pm

    You can legally have an abortion. If you believe abortion is killing, then yes, you can legally kill the unborn child. The majority of people in this country voted to have this law via their respective representative.

    Then the majority of people in your nation are wrong and your law sucks.

    It is wrong to kill innocent people to solve your problems.

  62. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:23 pm

    Can we really stop anybody from doing something they want just by making it illegal?

    Of course not. Anti-murder laws don’t stop criminals from murdering people, they exist to punish murderers and act as something of a deterrent to others.

    Certain acts being illegal is society’s way of saying that some things will not be tolerated and are an attempt to protect the innocent. I’m sure more murders would happen if murder were made legal (or even just not prosecuted).

  63. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:25 pm

    I think in the end it boils down to this: abortion isn’t for everybody.

    But it is for every “unwanted” baby whose mother decides they shall no longer live.

  64. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:27 pm

    I wonder why people find it a badge of honour to restrict their love of life.

    Because we have a different unerstanding of what love actually is.

    There is a certain prestige in suffering, isn’t there? And self-pity helps us pray, too.

    *Yawn*

  65. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:30 pm

    Actually, what seems hypocritical to me is, the straw-man sort of argument that it’s all about some people imposing their morality upon others- distracting from the heart of the issue: the arbitrary, legalized killing of innocent people.

    Exactly. And the pro-choice crowd are imposing their morality onto innocent babies, by taking away their right to live.

  66. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:48 pm

    Contrary to what you may believe about pro-choicers, we as a group are not gleeful “baby killers” armed with coat hangers waiting to surprise attack pregnant young women.

    This is not a caricature any of us would make.

    We are fully aware that abortion is not an ideal solution

    If the fetus is not a human being then there’s nothing wrong with it at all.

    If the fetus is a human being then killing it is not some much “not ideal” as just plain wrong. Is that so hard to comprehend?

    We don’t hate children.

    Did we say you hate them? Although killing them in the womb is hardly kind.

    We are simply people who respect the woman’s right to make decisions about her own body.

    So do I. But the baby is not her body.

    This is the last thing I’m going to say on the subject. I have finally realized that there is no point in arguing with theists, pro-lifers or other varieties of intolerant fanatics.

    Such as pro-choicers, for example.

    I believe in debating for reasons that only open minded people would understand: intellectual discourse, seeing things from another point of view, and in the best situations, acknowledging that your opponent has a point.

    I’m trying to work out where the middle ground is between “shredding babies” and “not shredding babies.”

    Even Carla thanked me for being gentle with her story. But what do I get in return? Scorn, contempt, attitude, preachiness…

    Logic.

    Your responses have only strengthened my own personal belief that we would all be better off if we were to rid the world of religion entirely.

    So it can be run by opinionated, intolerant secularists?

    I’m curious as to why a pregnant woman should have the right to determine that her “unwanted” child should be killed. Does a woman’s worth (and right to live) depend on being “wanted” by someone? A man, for instance?

    This is slightly off-topic, but I find it very interesting that theists believe we have free will when it comes to whether we accept or reject God, yet we have no free will regarding anything else. As Christians I think most of you would agree that the most important decision you can make in your life is the decision to accept Christ (which, by the way, entails loving your enemy and not placing judgment on others). So why is it that choices which are relatively mundane in comparison (such as the right to choose) are not ours to make?

    Well, I wouldn’t have thought the deliberate killing of a baby was “mundane,” myself.

    which, by the way, entails loving your enemy and not placing judgment on others

    who are you judging when you say that?

    who is judging you? I thought people here are just judging your ideas, which is a completely different kettle of fish.

  67. Lily
    February 16th, 2009 @ 9:55 pm

    The majority of people in this country voted to have this law via their respective representative.

    No, actually the majority didn’t. Remember Roe v Wade? That was a judicial decision made by 9 men who are completely unaccountable to the electorate. The people regularly voted against abortion legislation prior to Roe. (They still try to restrict it by passing laws every which the courts strike down.) Abortion was legal only in a few places under rather strict limits. There are others here who are far better versed in the history of abortion than I who can set the record straight on that aspect.

  68. PC
    February 16th, 2009 @ 10:29 pm

    So do I. But the baby is not her body.
    Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. The baby is still inside her body so it’s still part of her body.

    So it can be run by opinionated, intolerant secularists?
    Sounds like a great idea. Better than brilliant Christian men like Bush. Now there’s a guy who wasn’t opinionated or intolerant at all.

    Btw you are doing a great job of proving everything Eren says about you. Too bad your mom didn’t have an abortion. Then there would be 1 less raving bitch.

  69. Louise
    February 16th, 2009 @ 11:03 pm

    Let me get this straight, PC. Eren accused commenters here of being intolerant and then I get accused by you of being a bitch merely because I point out that secularists are equally (or perhaps more) intolerant. I see.

    I don’t give a fig about George Bush, because I don’t particlarly care about US politics, since I’m not American.

    How interesting that I am not advocating that anyone’s mother should have aborted them, but *I’m* the bitch! LOL!

    Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. The baby is still inside her body so it’s still part of her body.

    Nonsense. She’s not killing her own body, she’s killing her baby, even if it is inside her.

  70. PC
    February 17th, 2009 @ 12:11 am

    *yawn*

  71. Lily
    February 17th, 2009 @ 6:26 am

    Ah well, there are trolls everywhere. Isn’t it odd that those who shout loudest about respecting women’s rights to kill their babies are the ones that tend to respect women least?

    I am quite sure that you aren’t a bitch, Louise. I am not so sure about me.

  72. Renee
    February 17th, 2009 @ 6:54 am

    I’ve been pondering and pondering on this tread all night long. I kept thinking about the reasons why any mother in the animal kingdom would ever abandon their baby, which is what abortion is. We would like to delude ourselves that really it was a personal choice or that the unborn child is simply non-human in character to no worth of being deserved to be acknowledge as ‘a baby’, because to comprehend what is allowed through the procedure of abortion is too hard for man to grasp, so we make stuff up it up.

    Let’s leave God out of this for a moment and above the Earth atmosphere there is an alien spaceship in which an alien being is studying human habits as a ‘wildlife biologist’, now with this alien observations what would he think of women who were compelled to have an abortion? But not just women, but the larger picture of her environment and social cues.

    Animals just don’t abandon their young, it’s not natural, biological mothers are a young’s most important factor in their survival. Motherhood is hard-wired in our chemistry. Humans are no different. There is something environmental going on. Not like in the was we see environmental pollution, but rather the instability of our society and its structure.

    Abortion isn’t empowerment, rather it’s a sign of despair.

  73. frustrated(mk)
    February 17th, 2009 @ 9:48 am

    I think that people are totally addicted to sex. In all of it’s forms. Why else would people do the things they do in order to gratify themselves physically? It is the epitome of selfishness.

    Perfectly rational people lose it when it comes to lust.

    My son prides himself on self control. He lived for 2 years in college without electricity, hot water or heat. He did it to prove he had self mastery. He doesn’t want to be beholden to anything. He claims he is his own man.

    But then he got his girlfriend pregnant. I ask you, how does someone that prides them self on self control reconcile total loss of self control when it comes to sex?

    It’s really ironic. We claim to be free. And yet we are enslaved to our bodies. We are only free if we are able to say “NO” as well as “YES”. This is the difference between someone that drinks and an alcoholic. An occasional drinker has the option of saying “yes” to a drink or “no” to a drink. An alcoholic has lost that freedom. He can ONLY say “yes”…this is NOT freedom.

    Today, people talk about the “freedom” to have sex with whomever they please, under any circumstances they please. But I don’t think they really are free. I think they are slaves. I think they can say “yes”. But I do not think they can say “no”. If they could say “no”, then we would have 50 million “consequences”. We’d have responsible sex. We are so obsessed, so incapable of saying “no”, that we kill our own children, just to be able to continue saying “yes”…This is NOT freedom. This is slavery.

  74. PC
    February 17th, 2009 @ 3:30 pm

    Animals just don’t abandon their young, it’s not natural,
    What are you talking about animals abandon their young all the time. Maybe you should put down your bible for a second and watch the discovery channel instead. You might actually learn something for once.

  75. Lily
    February 17th, 2009 @ 3:45 pm

    Why don’t you enlighten us, PC. Which animals routinely kill their healthy young?

  76. PC
    February 17th, 2009 @ 4:01 pm

    Chill out lily. You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about healthy young. But if you ever saw that show meerkat manor then you’d remember the female got pregnant but couldn’t feed her baby for some reason, and she had to abandon it or else she’d be left behind by her family. I saw a documentary once about monkeys and the mother monkey left her injured kid behind because the group wouldn’t wait for it. My cat was abandoned by her mother, I found her in my backyard when she was still smaller then my hand, she was also injured and I took her to the vet and took care of her. The point is that animals do abandon their young, but usually the weaker ones. This is better for natural selection in the long run. If the mother decides that one of her babies is a runt or not worth looking after, which basically means not fit to reproduce, then she’ll abandon it.

  77. Lily
    February 17th, 2009 @ 4:17 pm

    PC: I think you need to think a little harder before you write. I referred to healthy young in my question to you. Your answer is non-responsive.

    We do not take our cues from meercats, dung beetles or penguins. Yes, of course the animal world abandons the sickly and useless. What else can it do? Seen any donkey doctors lately? Chimpanzee radiologists? How on earth is that relevant?

    If you can name a species that routinely kills its healthy young, please name it.

  78. PC
    February 17th, 2009 @ 4:40 pm

    My answer is nonresponsive to a question that doesn’t apply to anything I said. ;)

    Why should I have to defend a claim I didn’t make. I said animals abandon their young all the time. Look at the post. See the word healthy? No? Sure you don’t want to look again just to make sure? Is the word healthy in there? Still no? Try it again. Do you see it now? Is the word healthy in my post? STILL NO?! hmm…

    But just to appease your incredible ability to see things that aren’t there, my friend’s hamster ate its own young. Snakes and alligators do it too. And of course humans. So there. Wanna ask me to defend my belief in scientology even though I said nothing about scientology? Maybe you need glasses lily.

  79. PC
    February 17th, 2009 @ 4:46 pm

    Btw if we’re still talking about abortion here which I think we are, since its pretty much the reason you asked me about animals abandoning their young, then we are talking about humans abandoning weak, helpless young anyway. That’s what you prolifers keep saying, that its wrong to kill an innocent helpless baby. So what was your point in asking me about animals and healthy young again? Seems unrelated to anything we’re tlaking about anyway.

  80. frustrated(mk)
    February 17th, 2009 @ 5:02 pm

    All young are weak. It’s only in your mind that weak and unhealthy mean the same thing.

  81. Eren O'Del
    February 17th, 2009 @ 5:39 pm

    Even though I am through talking about this subject, I must admit that my curiosity got the best of me and I couldn’t resist coming back to check the responses. (Apparently, there’s been a party going on here that I wasn’t invited to.) I still have no further desire to debate abortion, but I wanted to address Carla one last time. Thank you for the comment, and for at least agreeing to disagree. I just wanted to let you know that I watched your video. You seem like a lovely person. All the best.

  82. Lily
    February 17th, 2009 @ 5:44 pm

    Thanks mk, for making that point. Now I don’t have to.

    PC, your tone is really offensive, as is your language. We get that you are pro-choice, we really do. We would like to have an adult conversation here and I, personally, would like to extend an invitation to you to join in. So, let me explain without further ado:

    1. You said, quite rudely:

    What are you talking about animals abandon their young all the time. Maybe you should put down your bible for a second and watch the discovery channel instead. You might actually learn something for once.

    2. I responded:

    Why don’t you enlighten us, PC. Which animals routinely kill their healthy young?

    This is not putting words in your mouth. This is an attempt to narrow the focus of the question. We all know that animals abandon or kill their unhealthy young. Despite your belief that we are slack-jawed cretins who are too stupid to come in out of the rain, we do know that much. So it doesn’t need discussion.

    However, we haven’t aborted 50 million sickly babies since Roe v. Wade. The vast majority were healthy babies. What other species routinely kills its healthy young? Can you answer that without sarcasm or insults?

  83. frustrated(mk)
    February 17th, 2009 @ 6:57 pm

    Eren,

    It is addictive, isn’t it???

  84. Eren O'Del
    February 17th, 2009 @ 7:24 pm

    LOL @ frustrated,

    Yes it is. Did I mention that ever since I started blogging I haven’t been paying as much attention to my schoolwork?

    P.S. The best way to get rid of a troll is to ignore it. Just my opinion.

  85. PC
    February 17th, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

    I did answer the question. My friend’s hamster ate its own babies and they were healthy. She said she made a mistake not separating the father from the rest of the family and he ate the young out of jealousy. I don’t know, maybe after the babies were born he wasn’t getting any more attention from the mother. Male alligators eat their young for the same reason, I don’t have any friends with pet alligators but I’ve heard it on documentaries.

    I’m rude to prolifers because they’re rude to me. They would always talk to me like I’m the devil’s spawn just because they didn’t like my opinion. But instead of just giving up and saying I refuse to argue about this anymore like Eren, I personally think its better to give those people a taste of their own medicine. And no thanks, I don’t want to have an adult conversation with any of you about this because no one will be an adult when it comes to my beliefs. It’s alot more fun for me to just make fun of everyone and see you get all riled up like you use to do to me.

  86. Eren O'Del
    February 17th, 2009 @ 7:54 pm

    PC,

    You are not doing much to help us win favor in the eyes of pro-life advocates. Remember, you and I are in a minority here. Sometimes I think people might be more apt to consider what I have to say if not for people like you who happen to be on “my side.”

  87. frustrated(mk)
    February 17th, 2009 @ 8:01 pm

    Eren,

    I think I came down on you awfully hard earlier…it might help if you understood that I have been fighting this fight actively for 30 years now. For the past two years I have been a moderator on Jill Staneks website…probably the number one pro life blog on the web…and now cohost my own pro life blog. Sometimes I debate abortion for 5 or six hours a day…EVERY DAY…

    After rereading your comments I’ve come to realize that you are new to debating in this forum. Some of us are as close to “pros” as you can get on this topic and particularly on blogs.

    We have an accepted sort of way of debating. Most debaters know this and it’s all sort of impersonal. I forget that not everyone has been doing this for years.

    I’m actually usually more sensitive to “where people are” in the debate. I dropped the ball with you, and I’m sorry.

  88. frustrated(mk)
    February 17th, 2009 @ 8:06 pm

    PC,

    You are guilty of doing to us, what I did to Eren. Sometimes we need to step back and remember that there are real people on the other side of the words…

    I rarely (Sorry Eren) get nasty when I debate. I try very hard to listen, and be respectful. You came out swinging without even giving anyone here a chance…

    I wasn’t fair to Eren. You haven’t been fair to us…what say we start over.

    Hey, PC. I’m MK. Pro Life. I can be awfully sarcastic, but I try not to be mean, and I won’t attack you personally. I am guilty of attacking the subject with fierce abandon, but I really try not attack the person them self. If you want to debate this topic, I’m willing to try. Fresh start. No weapons. Cold beer afterwards.

  89. Eren O'Del
    February 17th, 2009 @ 8:50 pm

    frustrated,

    I’m speechless. Thank you. And yes, I am not only new to debating on this forum, but new to debating on the internet in general. I only started engaging in these types of debates after creating a blog.

    I took a government class in high school, and political debate was a huge part of the curriculum. One of the most important lessons I took from that class was that in order to debate effectively one must be willing to listen to the other side. Not just wait your turn to talk, but really listen. In addition to listening, it is important to keep an open mind. A good debater can see things from the other person’s point of view. A really good debater is open to the possibility that their opinion could change.

    These lessons have never left me. That is why I try to show compassion for other people’s points of view. I even conceded that adoption was the best way to remedy the “unwanted baby” predicament. But, I also think I came across as weak and vulnerable to attack (not just by you, but anyone who disagrees with me). I have to admit that some of the responses I got offended me to the point where I did not wish to debate anymore.

    Apology accepted. I will be happy to discuss anything with you in the future. But I’m still taking a break from abortion. As you will probably agree, it gets tiresome making the same points over and over again.

  90. frustrated(mk)
    February 17th, 2009 @ 9:15 pm

    Eren,

    Most things worth debating get tedious after awhile. I like to debate, yes, but my heart is in furthering LIFE and the Catholic Church. So these are where you’ll usually find me. Unfortunately, these are two topics that you are really sensitive about.

    While I agree that you need to be open to the possibility of change, you also need to know what you believe. I guess anything is possible, but honestly? I have been doing this for so long, I really don’t think there is an argument I haven’t heard. I do promise in the future (if you should change your mind) to go A LOT easier on you. We can take it one step at a time.

    I find that when you discuss things with people, each one will require a different tactic. Earlier there were some pretty snarly comments and that got me going…poor you…you got lumped in with the rest.

    Some people only seem to respond to sarcasm for sarcasm…fighting fire with fire if you will, while others are more responsive to actual dialogue(as you appear to be). I much prefer the latter, but don’t back away from the former.

    I know they are called trolls, but most “trolls” are just people that have been hurt or burned in the past by prolifers. Sometimes they are testing you. If you pass the test by giving as good as you are getting, their defenses come down. Sounds crazy, but it’s true. They want to know what you are made of just as you want to know what they are made of.

    I think the important thing to remember about me is that I’m not in this to “win” a debate. I’m in it to make a difference. So I don’t usually play to score points, unless that is what is needed. Eventually, you can reach a place where conversation is possible, even with the most trollish of trolls. They are all just people, after all.

    If you’d like a softer tone and a less vitriolic battle, you could come over to my site for awhile. There’s not a lot of us. There are pro lifers, a few pro choicers, mostly Catholics, but we have our resident pro choice Catholic hater. We love him. It wouldn’t be the same without him. Pretty much everyone will treat you gently over there, until you get your sea legs. You can practice on us.

    Either way, don’t give up. There is a lot to be said for these blogs. Thousands of people just read and don’t comment and you never know who you are reaching. It’s not just the people that you are dealing with. There is a HUGE silent audience out there (Hi Lurkers!). So it’s worth sticking with it.

    I’m glad you accepted my apology. It was sincere. You seem really sweet. I hope you stick around.

    And drop by my blog…2secondsfast dot com.

  91. Katey
    February 18th, 2009 @ 1:54 am

    I must confess that I don’t fully understand the pro-choice argument that abortion is preferable to the child being born and (possibly) growing up in a miserable situation. How can you be so sure what that child’s future will be like? Who gave you the right to decide whether another human being’s life will be worth living?

    Let’s talk about my friend S. S was born the ninth child of a poverty-stricken family. Her parents could not provide for the children they already had. Their home was filthy and there was never enough food. To make matters worse, her mother was mentally unstable, and her father was a pedophile. It was pretty much the worst-case childhood.

    Finally, when S was 7 years old, she and her brothers and sisters were taken away and put into foster care. S remained in foster care until she was 12 years old, when she was finally adopted by a loving family. Standing back and taking a good look at the horrors S has lived through, most people would probably consider non-existence preferable. Her early life was filled with neglect, abuse, and instability. She never bonded with anyone during her formative years.

    And I am here to tell you that S is possibly the most happy, vibrant, and resilient person I have ever met. She is funny and tough and intelligent. She is training to be an obstetrician, and she’s married to a man she is head-over-heels in love with. Taking a look at the early years of her life, one might deem it not worthy of living… but S hasn’t done so. She has scars from her childhood, sure, but she loves being alive, and she uses her difficult past as a bridge to reach out to others with similar experiences.

    Those in favor of abortion speak of choice… well, I say we let human beings choose whether their lives are worth living, rather than taking that decision away from them.

  92. frustrated(mk)
    February 18th, 2009 @ 6:41 am

    Katey,

    Exactly! This whole “avoid suffering at ALL costs” is getting a little ridiculous. Suffering is part of the package. Whether it’s in the beginning of your life, like your friend “S”, at the end when you watch your loved ones and friends die off, or the middle when crap just happens, into EVERY life a little rain must fall. It’s what makes us strong. And unique. It’s called life.

    If you live your entire life just trying to avoid suffering, you’ll be a weak, unhappy person. You’ll end up wallowing in the very suffering you’re seeking to avoid.

    Not everyone gets a good poker hand. But everyone can bluff. Everyone has an equal chance at taking home the pot. You just have to adapt to what you’re dealt.

  93. Louise
    February 18th, 2009 @ 7:10 am

    These lessons have never left me. That is why I try to show compassion for other people’s points of view.

    Eren, I can’t speak for anyone else hear, but I don’t think it’s necessary to have compassion for anyone’s point of view. Having compassion and respect for people is good and necessary, but no-one has to have compassion for a POV. I wouldn’t have a lot of compassion for the POV of someone who thought cannibalism or rape was okay, for example.

    That’s not to say, however, that pro-choicers are Bad People. Some are truly revolting, most are normal people who I would be happy to have as a neighbour. Many people I know and love are wither pro-choice, or at least reluctant to say that abortion is out and out wrong, because they don’t want to be telling women how to live. This is all understandable. To be actively and vocally pro-life requires a deep conviction of the wrongness of abortion. So, bottom line: I do not think the majority of pro-choicers are Bad People. One or two are incorrigibly bad, but they are in the minority, going by my life experience at any rate.

    Does that help?

    I will debate the topic with you or anyone as robustly as I’m able, but I’m not attacking you or anyone else (unless they are personally rude to me first, by wishing me dead, for example).

    If you are going to continue blogging and debating in comboxes, it may help you to know that this is the Agora, not the Sanctuary. Robust debate is to be had over important and unimportant topics alike throughout cyberspace and it may help you to aquire, as quickly as possible, a fairly thick skin.

    Best wishes.

  94. Louise
    February 18th, 2009 @ 7:12 am

    “anyone else here”

    “Many people I know and love are either pro-choice”

  95. Eren O'Del
    February 18th, 2009 @ 4:52 pm

    Ladies, let me clear up a misunderstanding. This wasn’t so much about having my feelings hurt as it was about people not really listening to what I said. I felt that it was pointless for me to acknowledge some of the stronger points in the pro-life stance when no one was willing to acknowledge mine (and, as I said earlier, there are some situations where even a pro-lifer would be okay with abortion). It seems like you guys just scanned what I wrote, highlighted the pro-choice parts, and began attack. I got irritated, so I left. But I don’t need anyone to hold my hand or try to be gentle with me. If you knew my entire story, ie some of the hardship I went through after my wonderful childhood, you’d know that I am the last person who needs sugarcoating. I would just appreciate it if people would show me the same respect that I show them, opposing views notwithstanding. Otherwise, there’s no reason to debate.

    In all honesty I’m kind of bored with the topic. The problem with debate is that you’ll usually go a few rounds before you run out of things to say. If I were to continue arguing my point I think that people on both sides would be saying the same things over and over again. You may, of course, disagree.

  96. frustrated(mk)
    February 18th, 2009 @ 5:02 pm

    Eren,

    I didn’t mean gentle as in kid gloves, I meant I wouldn’t just shoot pat answers at you. I’d meet you where your were. You’re right that this argument goes round and round. So when person A says X, we shoot back with Y, and just assume that person A has been here and done this before. If they haven’t, it can seem like we’re not even bothering to hear what they have to say…as happened with you.

    I wasn’t gonna go all gooey on you, I promise. But I was willing to go “slow” and take your comments one at a time, more fully explaining WHY we give the off the cuff answers that we do.

    For instance, when some one brings up rape…we have 40 responses that we throw out immediately. Because we assume that EVERYONE is where we are…we forget that some people have not walked through the rape scenario. That they might not be aware of how few abortions are actually done because of rape. They don’t have the statistics, the resources, the history that we do.

    So when I said gentle, I meant, I would keep in mind that you haven’t heard all the answers before.

    As for getting bored with the topic, yes, that can happen. But as I said, I’m not in this to “practice” my debating skills. This is my heart and soul. Lily’s and Carla’s too. We don’t get bored, because it isn’t a “pastime” for us. It’s life and death. Literally. For us it’s war. We see ourselves as soldiers…sounds crazy, maybe, but it’s the truth.

    Anywho, I promise I didn’t mean to patronize you. I was just trying to own up to my rudeness.

  97. Eren O'Del
    February 19th, 2009 @ 2:25 am

    Thanks. I think we understand each other.

    By the way, what happened to the troll? I think you scared them away with your peace offering.

  98. frustrated (MK)
    February 19th, 2009 @ 7:15 am

    Eren,

    No problem. I never mind when people disagree with me, but I HATE when they disagree with me because they don’t understand what I’ve said. I really don’t like being “misunderstood”. So I think I know where you’re coming from.

    And yeah, our troll is gone. They often “hit and run” tho. They go from site to site, dropping little bombs and then off they go to the next site…I wish he would have stuck around tho. I love learning peoples “stories”…

  99. frustrated(MK)
    February 19th, 2009 @ 7:20 am

    Eren,

    I think the problem is that this isn’t primarily a pro life site. It isn’t primarily a Catholic site. It’s primarily an atheist site that has been hijacked by prolife Catholics…lol. So I keep being surprised when people aren’t “Up on the abortion issue”. Skeptimal is a good example. We made a comment in passing about 14 year olds getting abortions without parental consent, just assuming he knew this to be true, only to find out he had no idea. We almost missed a great opportunity there. On a purely “prolife” site, that would have been old news. But here, people are more versed in Atheist/Theist debate than the abortion debate. I would do well to remember that…

  100. frustrated(mk)
    February 19th, 2009 @ 7:23 am

    test

  101. Jeney
    February 19th, 2009 @ 4:44 pm

    I was Jean one time. I was brought up to know better – my friend was not taught the same values. She asked me if I’d take her to get an abortion and I didn’t even spend a second to consider. I just said yes.

    I told myself later that it didn’t matter, because if I didn’t take her, someone else would have. I rationalized that I was just being supportive of my friend and her struggle, but not supportive of the procedure.

    We’ve never talked about it since that day. I grew up and away from my faith, but eventually came back to it. I wonder if she thinks I’m a hypocrite. I wonder if she just figures I’m pro-choice. I wonder a lot of things, but I can’t make myself go to her 20 years later and tell her that I’m sorry that I didn’t stand up for her baby. That I’m sorry I didn’t try to stop her from letting the doctors hurt her. That I’m sorry I wasn’t a good enough friend to risk my own comfort for her well-being.

  102. frustrated(mk)
    February 19th, 2009 @ 7:09 pm

    Jeney,

    It’s never too late. If you know how to contact her, you might find that she has been carrying this weight around all by herself for the last twenty years. She might be thrilled to know that the one person who shared her “secret” still cares, and loves her.

    She also might not care, hasn’t thought about it, or wishes to forget it, but at least YOU will have done the right thing. I don’t know if you’re Catholic, but you could offer it up in atonement for having been party to it. You should also go to confession. Then you should forgive yourself. God doesn’t hold grudges. All He desires is that you recognize your error and are truly sorry. Her baby has been in His care for a long time, but you and your friend are His children too, and He longs for you both to be at peace as well.

    Call her.

  103. Jeney
    February 19th, 2009 @ 7:43 pm

    MK – Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. :)

    My hesitations in bringing it up to her have been based on a fear that I would be dredging up something painful for her. Also, I have been concerned that she would take my apology as having a back-handed judgment attached. “I’m sorry I brought you to do that terrible, terrible thing…”

    But after writing my first comment and then reading yours, I think I will consider contacting her very seriously.

    I’m not catholic, but I have confessed this to God. I don’t feel the weight of guilt for this anymore – but I do feel regret that it happened.

    I suppose the question I will be considering the most is: Will this just make *me* feel better? Or will this be for her benefit, too? If it’s just to make me feel better – I’m not interested. If it helps her in some way, and the good outweighs any pain she may feel, then I can easily set aside any discomfort it brings me and take care of that unfortunate, unspoken event.

  104. frustrated(mk)
    February 19th, 2009 @ 8:22 pm

    Jeney,

    Your concerns are well founded. But I think that the worst that could happen is she thinks your a jerk…

    But the worst that could happen if you don’t say anything is that she never begins to heal.

    You can make it clear to her that you are NOT judging her. That you just want her to know that if she ever wants to talk about it, you’re here for her. Then see how she responds. If it’s favorable, then you can let her know that you’ve come around to a different way of seeing things and you wish you had been a better friend. A real friend would have protected both her AND her child.

    Tell her you’d like to be that real friend now.

    If you sense that she has no idea where you’re coming from, then just say you’ve wondered about her all these years and wanted to know how she was doing.

    It’s funny, because even tho you haven’t shared much these last 20 years, that “moment/experience” bonded you in a way that few other experiences ever will. And I believe she knows that. If she really doesn’t care, then she won’t be devastated to think that you are “judging” her. It won’t make any difference. If she does care, then knowing that you think you did something “wrong” but that you still love her might just be exactly what she needs to hear.

    It’s a tough one, I agree. Pray before you make any moves. Let God guide you. If you ask Him, he’ll tell you what to do. You’ll know.

    I’m glad that you have forgiven yourself. Guilt is crippling. God Bless You.

  105. Jeney
    February 19th, 2009 @ 9:03 pm

    Okay – I’ve been called a jerk before. I can handle that. :D

    We’ve kept in touch over the years. Always very friendly – and well-meaning to do better at staying in touch.

    And hey, the fact that I still think of it and that I teared up reading this post probably means it’s time I give her a call.

    :)

  106. frustrated(mk)
    February 20th, 2009 @ 7:24 am

    Well, I for one will be adding my prayers to yours…let me know how it goes…please?

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