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	<title>Comments on: Daily Headline</title>
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		<title>By: Lily</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-9/#comment-38612</link>
		<dc:creator>Lily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-38612</guid>
		<description>Marriages don&#039;t break down, as a very wise man observed once. They aren&#039;t machines. Instead there are two people who can decide to live together in harmony working for common goals or they can decide to go off and do their own thing. 

Where children are concerned, there simply is no argument to be made about where their best interests lie. Except when actual abuse is present (and I would include mental/emotional abuse), children are far better off in intact families with their biological parents.

I remember when my sister and her husband were in the midst of their break up. She told me a story that haunts me 20 years later. She had had to take her 5 year old son to a pediatric psychiatrist because he was deeply depressed. While talking to the doctor, he blurted out &quot;my mommy and daddy don&#039;t kiss anymore. When people don&#039;t kiss, they don&#039;t love each other&quot;. That is how one 5 year old perceived his world crumbling around him. Well, never mind, kiddo. Suck it up and don&#039;t forget to take those nice pills the doctor gave you. 

His parents had taken no shots at each other, as far as I know. I am aware that they both tried very hard to hide what was happening from their son which is why my sister was shocked and upset by what he told the psychiatrist. The thing is, we now have a generation of children who believe that divorce is just the way things are; who deal with multiple homes and are very afraid of commitment (sp?) themselves because they have had no model and have no idea how it happens. 

What is good about this state of affairs? What?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marriages don&#8217;t break down, as a very wise man observed once. They aren&#8217;t machines. Instead there are two people who can decide to live together in harmony working for common goals or they can decide to go off and do their own thing. </p>
<p>Where children are concerned, there simply is no argument to be made about where their best interests lie. Except when actual abuse is present (and I would include mental/emotional abuse), children are far better off in intact families with their biological parents.</p>
<p>I remember when my sister and her husband were in the midst of their break up. She told me a story that haunts me 20 years later. She had had to take her 5 year old son to a pediatric psychiatrist because he was deeply depressed. While talking to the doctor, he blurted out &#8220;my mommy and daddy don&#8217;t kiss anymore. When people don&#8217;t kiss, they don&#8217;t love each other&#8221;. That is how one 5 year old perceived his world crumbling around him. Well, never mind, kiddo. Suck it up and don&#8217;t forget to take those nice pills the doctor gave you. </p>
<p>His parents had taken no shots at each other, as far as I know. I am aware that they both tried very hard to hide what was happening from their son which is why my sister was shocked and upset by what he told the psychiatrist. The thing is, we now have a generation of children who believe that divorce is just the way things are; who deal with multiple homes and are very afraid of commitment (sp?) themselves because they have had no model and have no idea how it happens. </p>
<p>What is good about this state of affairs? What?</p>
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		<title>By: Louise</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-9/#comment-38606</link>
		<dc:creator>Louise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 06:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-38606</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t think the best plan for encouraging relationships to last is to shackle unwilling adults together.&lt;/i&gt; 

I do. If married people are miserable, too bad. They have already shackled themselves together in the first place. If they leave each other and are happier, others will only be made miserable instead. There is no reason that parents&#039; happiness should come before the happiness of the children whom they have brought into the world.

People need to be held to their promises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don’t think the best plan for encouraging relationships to last is to shackle unwilling adults together.</i> </p>
<p>I do. If married people are miserable, too bad. They have already shackled themselves together in the first place. If they leave each other and are happier, others will only be made miserable instead. There is no reason that parents&#8217; happiness should come before the happiness of the children whom they have brought into the world.</p>
<p>People need to be held to their promises.</p>
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		<title>By: Louise</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-9/#comment-38605</link>
		<dc:creator>Louise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 06:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-38605</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;No fault divorce is wonderful for kids!  The scarring part of a seperation is the couple taking shots at each other, Lily and no fault divorce reduces that.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, as the child of (an amicable) divorce, I can assure you that it is very bad for kids. No fault divorce just encourages more and more divorce and leaves more people miserable than there would have been without it.

No fault divorce is useless. Where else do we have legal contracts being broken willy nilly without penalty?

Hopeless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>No fault divorce is wonderful for kids!  The scarring part of a seperation is the couple taking shots at each other, Lily and no fault divorce reduces that.</i></p>
<p>Well, as the child of (an amicable) divorce, I can assure you that it is very bad for kids. No fault divorce just encourages more and more divorce and leaves more people miserable than there would have been without it.</p>
<p>No fault divorce is useless. Where else do we have legal contracts being broken willy nilly without penalty?</p>
<p>Hopeless.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-8/#comment-38603</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 04:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-38603</guid>
		<description>Irreligious,

Finally, I have time to get to the whole KKK thing (if anyone is still following this thread).  And really, it didn&#039;t take two weeks for me to come up with an answer.
Anyway, the basic difference is in the nature of the relationship.  The heterosexual relationship if the KKK parents is perfectly natural and healthy, even if their ideology is not.  People are free in this country to believe any crazy thing they wish, but not necessarily to act on it.  Thus, the harmful beliefs and teachings of the KKK family are tolerated (in the true sense of the word which does not equate with condoning the beliefs and teachings but merely allowing it to exist) but any harmful acts will be punished.
A homosexual marriage is itself something that is not natural (in this sense natural means something that conforms with our nature - I expect fundamental disagreement here for obvious reasons) and thus not to be encouraged (just as the KKK ideology is not to be encouraged).  Also, because it goes against the grain of human nature, it is potentially harmful to those who pracitce and, yes to children raised in the midst of such relationships.  Please note that I say potentially, not necessarily in every single case, although I do think the studies Lily has posted will demonstrate that it is likely.  
One last caveat.  It should also be recognized that our definitions of harm in this case will be somewhat different.  The most obvious case would be that I would consider the recognition of a homosexual relationship as normal as in itself evidence of harm, whereas you will (again, obviously) disagree.
I don&#039;t expect it satisfy, but I hope it helps in some way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Irreligious,</p>
<p>Finally, I have time to get to the whole KKK thing (if anyone is still following this thread).  And really, it didn&#8217;t take two weeks for me to come up with an answer.<br />
Anyway, the basic difference is in the nature of the relationship.  The heterosexual relationship if the KKK parents is perfectly natural and healthy, even if their ideology is not.  People are free in this country to believe any crazy thing they wish, but not necessarily to act on it.  Thus, the harmful beliefs and teachings of the KKK family are tolerated (in the true sense of the word which does not equate with condoning the beliefs and teachings but merely allowing it to exist) but any harmful acts will be punished.<br />
A homosexual marriage is itself something that is not natural (in this sense natural means something that conforms with our nature &#8211; I expect fundamental disagreement here for obvious reasons) and thus not to be encouraged (just as the KKK ideology is not to be encouraged).  Also, because it goes against the grain of human nature, it is potentially harmful to those who pracitce and, yes to children raised in the midst of such relationships.  Please note that I say potentially, not necessarily in every single case, although I do think the studies Lily has posted will demonstrate that it is likely.<br />
One last caveat.  It should also be recognized that our definitions of harm in this case will be somewhat different.  The most obvious case would be that I would consider the recognition of a homosexual relationship as normal as in itself evidence of harm, whereas you will (again, obviously) disagree.<br />
I don&#8217;t expect it satisfy, but I hope it helps in some way.</p>
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		<title>By: nkb</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-8/#comment-37954</link>
		<dc:creator>nkb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-37954</guid>
		<description>Lily wrote:&quot;There you go again. You ignore the first person testimony of some one who was hounded and financially ruined by the gay lobby (and yes there is such a thing in Massachusetts and elsewhere) which can be verified easily; you ignore the father who was put in jail for objecting to the school teaching his small child things that were totally against his beliefs– another matter that can easily be verified.&quot;
.
I addressed this in the other entry.  The man was not jailed for pretsting, but for refusing to leave the principal&#039;s office.  Slight difference, and puts the objectivity of the rest of the stories in serious peril.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lily wrote:&#8221;There you go again. You ignore the first person testimony of some one who was hounded and financially ruined by the gay lobby (and yes there is such a thing in Massachusetts and elsewhere) which can be verified easily; you ignore the father who was put in jail for objecting to the school teaching his small child things that were totally against his beliefs– another matter that can easily be verified.&#8221;<br />
.<br />
I addressed this in the other entry.  The man was not jailed for pretsting, but for refusing to leave the principal&#8217;s office.  Slight difference, and puts the objectivity of the rest of the stories in serious peril.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-8/#comment-37789</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-37789</guid>
		<description>nkb,

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond.  Been busy.

Anyway, specific positions that could be explained are 
&quot;When does life begin and why?&quot;
&quot;Why should homosexuality be accepted as normal?&quot;

I do want to respond to some of your stuff from last week, but I need about half an hour of computer time with no one talking to me.  Hard to come by.

Irreligious,

I&#039;ll try to address the whole KKK point you brought up as soon as I have time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nkb,</p>
<p>Sorry it has taken me so long to respond.  Been busy.</p>
<p>Anyway, specific positions that could be explained are<br />
&#8220;When does life begin and why?&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Why should homosexuality be accepted as normal?&#8221;</p>
<p>I do want to respond to some of your stuff from last week, but I need about half an hour of computer time with no one talking to me.  Hard to come by.</p>
<p>Irreligious,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll try to address the whole KKK point you brought up as soon as I have time.</p>
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		<title>By: UnspeakablyViolentJane</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-8/#comment-37590</link>
		<dc:creator>UnspeakablyViolentJane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-37590</guid>
		<description>Yes, but prior to no fault people still got a divorce.  The difference was the need to villainize each other, which increased the hardship on the kids.  Nofault was a good move.

I don&#039;t think the best plan for encouraging relationships to last is to shackle unwilling adults together.  Rather, we should promote a healthy economy, which  reduces divorce (and abortion).  Every US recession but one started during a Republican administration. 

You would think that the party of pro-life and family values would take notice, but apparently not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but prior to no fault people still got a divorce.  The difference was the need to villainize each other, which increased the hardship on the kids.  Nofault was a good move.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the best plan for encouraging relationships to last is to shackle unwilling adults together.  Rather, we should promote a healthy economy, which  reduces divorce (and abortion).  Every US recession but one started during a Republican administration. </p>
<p>You would think that the party of pro-life and family values would take notice, but apparently not.</p>
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		<title>By: Lily</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-8/#comment-37583</link>
		<dc:creator>Lily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-37583</guid>
		<description>You might want to look at the longitudinal studies on the children of divorce, UVJ. It is simply irrefutable. These children suffer serious harm on every measure of child well-being that has ever been devised. Google 
&quot;children divorce&quot;. The first entries that come up are a staggering number of professional and lay help groups and sites to help parents  help their children with the trauma.  The research has demonstrated that it is long-lasting and the damage permanent. (yes, of course there are exceptions. So what in the face of the untold thousands of children harmed?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might want to look at the longitudinal studies on the children of divorce, UVJ. It is simply irrefutable. These children suffer serious harm on every measure of child well-being that has ever been devised. Google<br />
&#8220;children divorce&#8221;. The first entries that come up are a staggering number of professional and lay help groups and sites to help parents  help their children with the trauma.  The research has demonstrated that it is long-lasting and the damage permanent. (yes, of course there are exceptions. So what in the face of the untold thousands of children harmed?)</p>
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		<title>By: UnspeakablyViolentJane</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-8/#comment-37581</link>
		<dc:creator>UnspeakablyViolentJane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-37581</guid>
		<description>No fault divorce is wonderful for kids!  The scarring part of a seperation is the couple taking shots at each other, Lily and no fault divorce reduces that.

And the problem with polygamy is the whole private ranch thing.  Get rid of home schooling so that the kids can report to when someone is groping them, and the problem is solved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No fault divorce is wonderful for kids!  The scarring part of a seperation is the couple taking shots at each other, Lily and no fault divorce reduces that.</p>
<p>And the problem with polygamy is the whole private ranch thing.  Get rid of home schooling so that the kids can report to when someone is groping them, and the problem is solved.</p>
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		<title>By: Lily</title>
		<link>http://ravingatheist.com/2008/12/daily-headline/comment-page-8/#comment-37577</link>
		<dc:creator>Lily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ravingatheist.com/?p=2282#comment-37577</guid>
		<description>Oh and as for the lack of longitudinal studies and how the gays are supposed to obtain it--  who cares? I am not willing to turn a generation or two of children into guinea pigs to test a ridiculous attempt to redefine marriage and parenthood. We already did that with no-fault divorce and serial polygamy. It has been a disaster. How many more children must suffer from  the reckless attempts of  &quot;adults&quot; to rewrite human nature?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and as for the lack of longitudinal studies and how the gays are supposed to obtain it&#8211;  who cares? I am not willing to turn a generation or two of children into guinea pigs to test a ridiculous attempt to redefine marriage and parenthood. We already did that with no-fault divorce and serial polygamy. It has been a disaster. How many more children must suffer from  the reckless attempts of  &#8220;adults&#8221; to rewrite human nature?</p>
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