The Raving Theist

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God Squad Review CXLV (Rebellious Children)

October 17, 2005 | 161 Comments

How does God want us to deal with smart-assed college kids? A father asks the Squad what to do about his once

Comments

161 Responses to “God Squad Review CXLV (Rebellious Children)”

  1. Thelastfreethinker
    October 17th, 2005 @ 1:34 am

    This looks like another pile of Christian crap. What right does this guy have to control his son’s life? If the kid is in college, he’s an adult. Certainly the police can prevent some of the behavior, such as the fighting, but cursing and atheistic speech? Those are human rights protected by the first amendment. It has always been the goal of Christianity to control people by removing their rights, which is exactly what this father and the squad are doing.

    Regarding Deuteronomy and execution, doesn’t the fifth commandment say something like, oh, I don’t know, “Thou shalt not kill”? I’m pretty sure that one of the central ideas of Christianity (and all beliefs, including Atheism) is the value of human life. Aren’t they showing utter disregard for human life and their own rules by killing someone for minor offenses? Obviously they’re willing to say anything to get their way, even if it contradicts something else they said.

  2. hashbrownz
    October 17th, 2005 @ 2:30 am

    christianity is not about the value of human life. according to the christians, god only made us for his own vanity, to make himself look good, to entertain himself. whether we die or not is irrelevent. we are cheap and numerous.
    and lets not forget the genocide god no only condoned but demanded of the israelites.
    he’s a monster, y’know. and he doesn’t give a fuck about human rights.

  3. a different tim
    October 17th, 2005 @ 7:39 am

    As a teacher, I’m kind of in favour…we could do it once or twice a year to keep the others in line.

  4. Cowardly Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 8:03 am

    Oh man, this could be me!! I told my dad yesterday I didn’t want to go to church anymore cuz I dindn believe that stuff and he told me to haul my butt outta bed or he would. He can too cuz he is 6′ 4 and I am 5’5. I sya that I am 17 and can do what I want!!!!

  5. Dada Saves
    October 17th, 2005 @ 8:07 am

    How come the God Squares didn’t reference the Prodigal Son anecdote? That guy came through smelling like a rose.

  6. Anonymous
    October 17th, 2005 @ 8:29 am

    “‘the two

  7. MBains
    October 17th, 2005 @ 9:19 am

    Wouldn’t it have been easier, cheaper and less emotionally devastating to have simply aborted the kid if they weren’t going to bother raising it responsibly?

    Ahh well… I suppose it’s just gods workin’ in mysterious ways.

  8. franky
    October 17th, 2005 @ 9:23 am

    “out by only a very small, erudite minority”
    That is the best line in that post. Great TRA. Keep it coming.

  9. Rudy
    October 17th, 2005 @ 12:31 pm

    Disclaimer: I don’t have kids.

    if this was my son, I would have a problem with him displaying his bad habits in my house. My attitude is, you live here, you live by the rules, until you have your own house\money. As for not believing, well all the better, only less godidiot in the world. Although, it would seem like this case is more about rebellion than actually realizing the full extend of his stance.
    The son will probably come around like most pople after some ‘miracle’ or other random event that is interpreted as divine intervention….

  10. Cowardly Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 12:35 pm

    I am not rebelling!! You sound just like my mom (who laughed when I told her I was an atheist last night) and my father is always pulling that crud about his house his rules.

    I put up with it cuz I want them to pay for me to go to college and I am not ready to go out on my own but I think there is a difference between 7 and 17. How do I get them to respect my rights?

  11. qedpro
    October 17th, 2005 @ 12:55 pm

    at some point, you have to stop caring what you’re parents think. Its called growing up.

  12. severalspecies
    October 17th, 2005 @ 1:01 pm

    It’s crap like this (Deuteronomy) that helps to provide some of the cement toward my decision to be an atheist

  13. Cowardly Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 1:10 pm

    Well, I do care what my parents think about a lot of stuff. I just want them to respect my right to think for myself about things.

    What’s all the the bother about Deuteronomy? That stuff is in the Old Testament and Christians aren’t bound by it. Shoot there is lots of stuff there that nobody bothers about anymore. Like I am pretty sure my dad didn’t give my grandfather any goats for my mother.

  14. jahrta
    October 17th, 2005 @ 1:12 pm

    Cowardly – I find your handle quite ironic, for if anything you’ve demonstrated bravery in announcing to your theist parents that you don’t believe as they do. This often has the undesired effect of having their beliefs forced even harder upon you, as if the thinking is that since the gentle indoctrination “didn’t take,” they have to redouble their efforts “to save your soul.” Oftentimes when theist parents adopt this stance, it has the effect of driving the atheist offspring as far away from the parents as possible, which is an arguably beneficial situation for the atheist progeny.

    When a theist parent – almost always the father – behaves in the manner of your father (threatening, physical and emotional intimidation, “pulling rank”) it makes me question the supposedly loving model of the “christian family” and their “family values.” I don’t view the things I just listed as values I’d fight to protect, do you? I’ve seen this ridiculous garbage fall upon atheists time and again to varying degrees. I dealt with my share as well but nothing anywhere near what you’re talking about. My dad was actually pretty cool with it, but it’s my mom who gives me the never-ending guilt trip. She’s jewish so it’s her job. She’s also a hypocrite, but she doesn’t seem to understand that no matter how many glaring examples i provide her. I think she’s one of those people who maintains a belief in some supreme being “just in case,” which never made sense to me. The way I see it it’s far better to have some balls and make a decision (based upon fact and logic) than to pussyfoot around “just in case-ing”.

    You’re stuck in a difficult situation because of your age and financial dependence upon your folks, but I still think there’s hope here. And you don’t have to lie to yourself or to them and pretend to be something you’re not. I think that if you sit down with them and try to calmly explain what it is you believe – and why – then maybe there’d be a tiny glimmer of hope. I’d also explain that the more someone tries to force you to think as they do, the more it tends to have the opposite effect. If they refuse to listen, I’d mention how it denotes a total lack of respect for you as a person, the values you hold dear, and everything else you’ve been taught to believe forms the basis of parental love and guidance. I’m not saying they don’t love you, but they don’t seem to view you as your own person, an entity old enough to make decisions for yourself.

    I’d ask you to print out the comment and show it to them, asking them to dispute each of these points in good measure, but one of two things would undoubtedly happen here:

    1.) Your dad would crumple up the paper and ignore the issues, because “nothing that comes from an atheist site can be a good thing”

    2.) Your dad would read the post and just laugh at it without actually responding to anything i’ve written

    At any rate, you’re old enough to make your own path through life. Don’t let someone else snuff out your guiding light.

  15. Jason Malloy
    October 17th, 2005 @ 1:15 pm

    “that law that seems so insanely harsh to modern ears.”

    Yep, sort of exactly like how all the claims about god and floods and such sounds like cartoonish bullshit to “modern ears”. “Modern ears” sound like something positive!

    While we’re dating body parts, the phrase “morally corrupt” seems like something that would only fall from “antiquated lips”.

  16. Cowardly Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 1:49 pm

    My father is not intimidating or abusive! He has always been a great dad. But there is no question at my house that he and my mom are in charge. Yesterday when I said I didn’t want to go to church he looked at me like I was green. Basically he said to get out of bed and that two hours before services was not the time to make an announcement like that. My mom told me that night that if I didn’t want to go to church, I didn’t have to but that I would have to make dinner and have it ready for when they and my sisters get back. She didn’t see any reason why she should have to do it, if there was somebody at home with the time. She alwasys wins. I hate to cook! As far as trying to reason with them, well my dad is a surgeon and my mom is an opthamologist. I can’t argue with them and win. They know way more than me. That’s why I am a coward. Everytime I try to explain all I have is my feeling that it can’t be true. They have a gazillion years of college and a den full of books. I can’t compete with that. And they did read some of this site because I left it up when I walked away from the computer one day when I was reading but dad got interested. Basically he said it sounded like a bunch of undergraduates with too little training in either philosophy or history. So I guess I am going to have to wait til I am on my own.

  17. jahrta
    October 17th, 2005 @ 3:06 pm

    I may have misjudged your folks a bit, but the underlying points remain. As far as cooking goes, i greatly enjoy it – there’s a sense of satisfaction that comes from being able to prepare your own meals You should try it sometime and see what you come up with – just don’t burn the house down in the process.

    As far as being under-educated is concerned, I have read hundreds if not thousands of well-reasoned and eloquent appeals to logic from a great many atheist posters on here. They are almost without fail or exception met with overly emotional and religious drivel on the part of the theists who try to counter the validity of the posts (and moral standing of the posters – also knows as “ad hominem” attacks). There are a few exceptions to this rule – Steve G and Frank to name a couple.

    Don’t let your age keep you from establishing a point in life. You know how you feel about religion and god – now sit down and ask yourself why you feel that way. Ask your parents why they feel as they do, if you need to defend your newfound atheistic worldview. Ask them for evidence and proof beyond that which the bible provides (as the bible, in all of its versions, is incredibly and undeniably self-contradictory in a myriad number of ways). Your dad might some day “allow” you to think for yourself, but I wager it would be far more important and satisfying to you if you could defend your position with logic and reason. You are the product of two doctors – odds are you’re a smart cookie and you’ll find the philosophy and science you’re looking for online to back up your positions.

    I hope your dad didn’t see anything written by choobus or ghoulslime when he popped his head in here – while amusing, they don’t necessarily make us look great as a whole.

  18. jahrta
    October 17th, 2005 @ 3:08 pm

    speaking of which, stay out of the forums :P

  19. Heretic Slayer
    October 17th, 2005 @ 3:47 pm

    Jahrta, your comments are amazingly sensible (wrong but sensible) given what normally passes for rational conversation here. But I think I am getting something you aren’t… namely, I don’t think Cowardly Atheist is an atheist at all. Now tell the truth, kid. How can you be an atheist for no good reason?

    You obviously love your parents and respect them. You do sound really intelligent. Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that you are asserting your independence? You can’t even begin to give them (or us) a real reason for being an atheist. You know that they, being highly educated, can make mincemeat of you !

    I mean, I went through something similar when I was 16 and 17. It is so hard, when you feel all grown up, to still be a kid. But let me tell you something. Even when you are 65, you are going to be your momma’ s baby. You might as well get used to it now.

    Actually, unlike Jahrta, I would say read the forums and, if you can keep your dinner down, ask yourself: Is this what I want to be? Are these the kind of people I want for friends? Think about the good friends you have now and compare. And then there is this little horror to consider… Are these the kinds of men you would want your sisters to marry??? A word to the wise…

  20. MBains
    October 17th, 2005 @ 4:45 pm

    She didn’t see any reason why she should have to do it, if there was somebody at home with the time. She alwasys wins. I hate to cook!

    I aggree “Cowardly” that you hardly seem such at all. Good for you.

    On the other hand kid, the bit above DOES make you sound like a whiny 17 year old. Enjoy your right to be so! I mean it!!

    But they are your family and while you’re a part of the household, you’ve got a responsibility to contribute to its happiness.

    Thinking for your self means taking Responsibility for your self. Unless you think you can find a better place to live, I’d hold the line on the “no church” and start learning how to appreciate the Joy of Cooking.

    And come again!

  21. jahrta
    October 17th, 2005 @ 4:57 pm

    Being a theist doesn’t automatically make you a good person, and being an atheist doesn’t make you a foul-mouthed purveyor of pornography. I could just as easily point to the catholic church and say that being a priest makes one a pedophile. There are a-holes on both sides of the fence, HS. The worst ones are those who don’t seem to know that they’re a-holes :) I believe that all one has to do in order to live a good life is to be considerate to each other, pay your taxes and work dilligently.

    that having been said, I don’t know that you can take what CA said as evidence that he isn’t an atheist at heart. There are so many stripes of atheism, and the only thing any of us can say that we have in common is that we do not foster a belief in god. As far as I’m concerned, CA counts as one because he has come forth and stated as much. His reasoning behind this statement isn’t argued to any degree beyond his personal feelings on the matter, and he has a lot of research and whatnot to peruse in order to flesh out this line of reasoning, as many of us here have done, but the seed has been planted.

  22. Choobus
    October 17th, 2005 @ 5:38 pm

    I am deeply offended! For every Hermesten and Jahrta, we must have a choobus and a ghoulslime. The cosmic balance must be maintained. Just as for every godidiot we must have a scientist or mathematician, or maybe just someone who is, well, what is the opposite of a closedminded gullible fool who cannot think for their self? Whatever it is, we need more of them.

    Praise the lord.

  23. Choobus
    October 17th, 2005 @ 5:53 pm

    Cowardly Atheist,

    It is worthwhile to interject here to let you know that the awesome heretic slayer is tantamount to a troll inasmuch as she deliberately makes fallacious arguments in order to have them refuted in a manner which she finds enabling to her othermore sinister argumentative points. This said, it is good for a laugh, kind of like Rush Limbaugh. Jahrta is spot on in saying that there is much to said for standing your ground no matter what your age is. The quality of independent thought is not welcomed in theistic circles, especially in younger people who might still need some more brainwashing, so you will likely encounter some resistance, but you will be much stronger for it. All you need to remember is to rely on honest discussion, reason and science and do not accept anything on “faith” as this is another way of saying “shut the fuck up and just believe already”. Good luck young skywalker

  24. qedpro
    October 17th, 2005 @ 7:03 pm

    Cowardly Atheist – grow a fucking backbone…..

  25. Cowardly Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 8:08 pm

    Thanks Jahrta, Mbains and Heretic Slayer for your messages. I appreciate them. But what ugly mouths the others have! I don’t want to sound like that to anyone. I have a happy home and I like my family, as well as love them. I wouldn’t be so conflicted otherwise.

    Heretic Slayer, I don’t know if I am really an atheist. Maybe I am an agnostic. I just don’t know any more. I don’t think I am rebelling or anything like that. But I can’t wait to be on my own!!!! If anything, I want to get away from my sisters. :)

  26. Paul
    October 17th, 2005 @ 9:00 pm

    Dear Cowardly Atheist:

    Choose your battles well. Your parents are still paying the bills, and are legally responsible for you, and they rightfully control important aspects of your life. However, beyond any laws are the rights of conscience, so you should care for your conscience, but you’d better not display your conscience to your parents until you’re sure that it’s safe enough.

    Ask yourself “do I want to die on this hill?” If yes, then God speed (no pun intended). If no, then keep your own counsel.

    Question Authority, and the Authorities Will Question You.

  27. Heretic Slayer
    October 17th, 2005 @ 9:37 pm

    CA: I am so glad you came back, even though you will have to wash your brain after reading those little grace notes added by choobus and qedpro. Unfortunately, for every sane atheist here, there are at least 5 dirty-minded psychopaths. I really hope you will go away soon. You might go blind reading some of these … people.

    What I should have said earlier and didn’t was that it is ok to have doubts! In fact, I would be surprised if there is any thinking Christian alive who hasn’t. The devil doesn’t worry about the choobuses of the world. They are safely his. It is people like you that have to be won over.

    Years ago, I taught a Sunday School for the college age kids. I gave them Bertrand Russell’s “Why I am not a Christian” to read, in order to give them some practice dealing with challenges to their faith. I wasn’t sure it would do the trick because it was hopelessly, laughably out of date 20 years ago. But still, they benefitted from it, never having dealt with any kind of challenge.

    You didn’t say whether you are Catholic or Protestant. If you are Catholic, please tell your priest, at least in the confessional, what you are feeling. He will help you work through it. Likewise, if you feel comfortable talking to your pastor or youth minister, do so! They have heard it all, I assure you.

    Since your parents know what you are thinking and are well educated, why don’t you start by sitting down with one or both of them and asking them how they came to the point they are at. Ask them if they ever have doubts and, if they do, how they deal with them. This could be the start of your adult relationship with them. From what you have said, it sure sounds like they would take you seriously.

    But please. As a parent myself, I can tell you that springing surprises on your parents will not be the best conversation opener. What you did was on a par with going up to them and saying, “You know that grandchild you say you would like to have some day? Well, guess what …”!

  28. Viole
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:10 pm

    You know, Heretic, it’s great that you’re willing to sacrifice your vision to protect prospective atheists, but you really should think of yourself occasionally. Don’t worry, you can leave. We’ll be sure to offend people without you pointing out that they should be offended.

  29. Borgia
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:23 pm

    my son is refusing to eat his peas….meet me at the city gates and bring your own stones.

  30. TenDimensions
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:26 pm

    Being new here, I’m going to go out on a limb and weigh in on this situation with Cowardly Atheist. First (and most importantly, IMO) is that you think for yourself. One of the most depressing things about religion is that with a ridiculously high degree of accuracy if you hand me a baby I can tell you what religion they will follow as an adult if I know the religion of the family. Too few people reason out religion on their own. THINK. Of all the things that separate us from the rest of the life in the entire universe, thinking is what separates us the most.

    Secondly, at the age that you’re at there is a certain amount of understanding about how to pick your battles appropriately. It’s not going to do you or anyone in your family any good to become overly rebellious and difficult. They may be able to make you go to church, but they can’t control your mind and what you think.

    Keep your mind free, be patient, and stay calm. You will be a full grown adult sooner than you realize and if you play your cards right now you can maintain a loving relationship with your parents and be your own man in another five years.

  31. Choobus
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:27 pm

    heretic asshole,

    I would much rather go witrh Satan than spend the afterlife listening to the sort ofd sanctimonius shit you come out with. I feel sorry for your children, and indeed anyone who ever has to listen to the kind of self righteous arrogance that assclowns such as yourself invariably promulgate. Furthermore, you have definately commited the sin of pride so I guess I’ll be seeing you in hell after all. Fuck!

    what a didlo

  32. Reluctant Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:39 pm

    Heretic Slayer:
    ” I wasn’t sure it would do the trick because it was hopelessly, laughably out of date 20 years ago.”
    How is it 20 years out of date? I thought that age lent credibility, in your profession?
    Oh, I forgot, sorry! Double-standard, maybe?

  33. Reluctant Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:45 pm

    Jarhta:
    “Is this what I want to be? Are these the kind of people I want for friends? ”
    Go to the Nogodblog occasionally – the people there are very friendly, helpful, moral (zounds! Hard to believe, for godless heretics!), & the crap spouters are (usually) ignored.

    Heretic Slayer: I beg your pardon, sir, but I take some issue w/that. Try not to paint w/too broad a brush. & it’s called free will: something xtians tout, but rarely put into practice.

  34. Heretic slayer
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:45 pm

    LOL!! Choobus. You can’t even spell dildo correctly! CA, if you are still here, go to bed immediately! The succubi and incubi are out and flying in full force. RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!

    What is not so funny is the choice of that psychopath Choobus. Chooby, I will say in all seriousness that by the grace of God, you will be happier in hell than in heaven, if that is what you really want.

    Viole, I have noticed that you seem to be unable to restrain yourself from inviting others to leave. May I suggest that you follow your own advice?

    CA, my dear child in Christ, for every Paul, for every Jahrta, for every TenDimensions there are 5-8 sociopaths here. Or maybe they are really psychopaths. Who can tell? What I do know, is that you are living in sunlight. Do you really want to live in this dreck?

  35. choobus
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:51 pm

    idiot heretic,

    you are not even worth my time to check spolling.
    Enjoy your life of self righteousness, arrogance and godidiocy you sad shitsucker.

    your pal,

    choobus

  36. Choobus
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:53 pm

    PS, heretic fool, do you do anal?

  37. Reluctant Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:58 pm

    Heretic Slayer: “Or maybe they are really psychopaths.”
    What was that verse? Oh, yeah.
    “Judge not lest thou be judged, condemn not….”
    You finish the verse.

  38. Heretic Slayer
    October 17th, 2005 @ 10:59 pm

    Chooby dooby do!
    Nobody loves you
    Chooby dooby do!
    You are so frightful
    Tweaking you’s delightful
    Chooby, dooby, do!

    Now go away like a good insane clown. The adults are talking and there is a youngster listening.

  39. Kenosh
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:02 pm

    “The succubi and incubi are out and flying in full force. RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!

    Chooby dooby do!
    Nobody loves you
    Chooby dooby do!
    You are so frightful
    Tweaking you’s delightful
    Chooby, dooby, do!

    Now go away like a good insane clown.”

    This is being “adult”? You are a hypocrite, and do no better.

  40. Heretic Slayer
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:05 pm

    Find the profanity. Find the vugarity. Then we’ll talk.

  41. Reluctant Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:05 pm

    Heretic Slayer: I’m w/Kenosh. That was remarkably infantile. Can’t do any better?

  42. Reluctant Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:07 pm

    Heretic Slayer: “Find the profanity. Find the vugarity. Then we’ll talk.”
    If nobody can, does that mean you’ll stop?

  43. Kenosh
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:08 pm

    “Find the profanity. Find the vugarity.”

    Profanity, and vulgarity? Well, calling someone a mythical demon that comes in the night to rape people seems pretty profanic. You are self-righteous, and hypocritical Heretic Slayer. Your name is prime example of your childish nature.

  44. Choobus
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:08 pm

    Fantastic!

    It doesn’t take much to see the real godidiot does it! At least I have the excuse that I never even make any effort to have a serious discussion with this kind of godidiot moron, because I have learned that they are all the same, and even the reasonable ones (like Steve G) ultimately end up using the same tired arguments that atheist and theist can never reconcile (sorry Steve, but I thinkl you know this). Still, it’s good to have exposed yet another godidiot hypocrite. The sad part is, this retard has children. What will their lives be like, blighted with enforced brainwashing and subsequent godidiocy, and having a parent that can at best be a source of shame, and at worst, well, let’s just say “the boston effect” is a frightening reality with bible bashing freaks these days.

  45. Heretic Slayer
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:20 pm

    Heretic Slayer: “I’m w/Kenosh. That was remarkably infantile. Can’t do any better?”

    Does he deserve any better? I am not going to spew filth. Heck even the majority of you find him too much, so far as I can tell.

    But you culturally deprived atheists missed the best part. Try singing my little ditty to a couple of bars of “Srangers in the Night”! Not bad for 35 seconds of thought, which is, of course, 35 more than he deserves.

  46. Kenosh
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:25 pm

    “Does he deserve any better? I am not going to spew filth.”

    But you already have, and you claim atheists as culturally deprived. Is this because they don’t believe the sort of hypocrite culture you do?

    “But you culturally deprived atheists missed the best part. Try singing my little ditty to a couple of bars of “Srangers in the Night”!”

    Why, to be as bigoted, or as hypocritical you?

  47. Reluctant Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:26 pm

    Heretic Slayer: “But you culturally deprived atheists missed the best part.”
    That’s it. Went too far.
    I am apostate. I am heretic. Come then, and slay me. I invite your wrath, and that of your mythical god. Come! Strike! Ride down on your winged horse, gird in your Valkyrie garb, shouting your mystical diatribes! I defy thee, I spit at thee, I call thee…oh, all kinds of nasty names.
    Come! Come, & slay thine enemy!
    But you’d better be good, baby. Reeeeaaallll good.

    Oh, & for a taste of your own medicine:

    ‘Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor REVILERS, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. ‘1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    And:
    “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” Matthew 7.1
    Thirdly:
    “But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ” Matthew 5:22

    LIVE BY YOUR OWN RULES.

  48. Heretic Slayer
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:43 pm

    Can I get you a nice cold coke? You are a trifle overwrought.

  49. Reluctant Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:46 pm

    Heretic Slayer: don’t condescend to me ma’am. I am a grown man, & will not tolerate it.
    I am still waiting to be stricken down from on high.
    But I shan’t hold my breath.
    Overwrought? I’d advise a reality check, madam. I find your hubris appalling.

  50. Heretic Slayer
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:52 pm

    It is really interesting to see you guys get more and more hysterical. Why do you not have the courage of your convictions? The devil can quote scripture. Whether he or you can understand it, that is another question. Kenosh, I am not going to address any more of your remarks. They are so confused and illogical, that I cannot figure out a way to deal with them. To equate anything I have written with Chooby’s “filth” is, literally, deranged. As in cognitive impairment. It cannot be dealt with except with therapy and, perhaps, medication.

    Reluctant atheist: You, on the other hand, are hilarious. Well the devil can quote scripture so why not you? The scriptures also say, “mock the devil and he will flee you”. You need to understand scripture before you hurl it. You all are not the brothers of whom Jesus speaks. I wish you were.

  51. Rhett Butler
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:56 pm

    “Can I get you a nice cold coke? You are a trifle overwrought.”

    You little hypocrite. You don’t mind my knowing about them, just my talking about it.

  52. Reluctant Atheist
    October 17th, 2005 @ 11:59 pm

    Heretic Slayer: I am in no ways equating your words w/Choobus. You may want to get a refund on that armchair psychology degree: it was a waste of money.
    I am glad you find it hilarious. It shows your level of self-absorption, your hubris, and your total lack of self-awareness.
    Apparently, I understand the scripture better than you do. It is simpler for you to say, “Oh, you don’t understand what you’re saying,” when indeed, I show a greater comprehension of it than yourself.
    You agreed to the rules. Try to adhere to them more strictly. Note: it is not my place to hold you to them. That is between you and your conscience.
    You may also want to look up the greek agape.

  53. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:02 am

    P.S, where in your book of fables, does it say the devil can quote scripture? Wasn’t that Trimethius (did I spell that right?)

  54. Kenosh
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:03 am

    ” I cannot figure out a way to deal with them. To equate anything I have written with Chooby’s “filth” is, literally, deranged.”

    Or with many other things as well, including reality. I was not comparing you with Chooby; only pointing out how you assume to be better than others here, when quite apparently, you’ve proven yourself a hypocritical lofty child.

  55. Rhett Butler
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:05 am

    “Why do you not have the courage of your convictions?”

    Don’t flatter yourself. I’m not a marrying man.

  56. JCLOVE
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:38 am

    why don’t you atheists admit that choobus is a disgusting freak, and heretic slayer is not a “didlo” but a very sensible person who makes much more sense than the filthy pornographers like choobus? It’s kind of pathetic that thisperson is turning into your representative! Why don’t you just call this the raving choobus site, and put it in the XXX category where it will soon belong.

  57. Heretic Slayer
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:39 am

    Mathew 4:6 is an example of the devil quoting scripture. Let’s see: hubris, agape … dare I ask? Classics major and former Sunday School teacher?

    It is a never ending source of wonder to me how nasty you all are at the best of times but oh how you heathen rage when a Christian stands up to you! I almost feel sorry for you. …

  58. Viole
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:50 am

    You wound me with your accusation, Heretic! I never asked you leave, I merely expressed concern for your continued heath. It’s a great, wonderful thing that you’re willing to sacrifice yourself for your siblings in Christ, but an unnecessary sacrifice just doesn’t have much value. Jesus didn’t die on the cross because God was letting people into heaven, you know. You’re free to stay, and I don’t want you to leave– after all, Choobus needs someone to torment– I just don’t want you to put yourself at risk without good reason.

    And let’s face it, telling people when they should be offended isn’t a worthwhile reason to dare filth-induced blindness. Think of your children.

  59. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:52 am

    Heretic Slayer: hmmm….okay, I’ll grant you that 1. Matt 4:6 could be interpreted that way.
    “Classics major and former Sunday School teacher?”
    Nope and nope.

    “It is a never ending source of wonder to me how nasty you all are at the best of times but oh how you heathen rage when a Christian stands up to you! I almost feel sorry for you. … ”

    & again, I cannot speak for anyone here, but I assure you madam, I only get up in arms when an Xtian starts taking the ‘higher moral ground’ as it were. It’s called Antimonianism.

    You are projecting here, madam, from a singular point of view. You come into an atheist blog, with a distinctly adversarial nom de plume, attempt to hijack the thread, playing hostess as if it was yours,
    & then when anyone takes exception to it, it feeds your martyr complex (it may need to go on a diet soon).

    I am not a nasty man, madam. But folks like yourself get right up my nose.
    & I will tell you this once: you don’t know me.
    & again: LIVE BY YOUR OWN RULES.

  60. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 1:18 am

    JCLOVE:
    Choobus doesn’t speak for me. Nor I for him.
    I am a freethinker. I speak for me, thank you.

  61. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 1:31 am

    Heretic:
    “Mark you this, Bassanio,
    The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
    An evil soul producing holy witness
    Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
    A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
    Oh, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”
    –Act I, Scene iii, lines 93-98 – Merchant of Venice.

  62. Zed
    October 18th, 2005 @ 2:28 am

    “why don’t you atheists admit that choobus is a disgusting freak, and heretic slayer is not a “didlo” but a very sensible person who makes much more sense than the filthy pornographers like choobus? It’s kind of pathetic that thisperson is turning into your representative! Why don’t you just call this the raving choobus site, and put it in the XXX category where it will soon belong.”

    Well, I can’t say I agree completely with Choobus, and his personal taste in pornography, but overall I don’t think pornography is necessarily a bad thing. Why should I; I don’t follow religion that demonizes it. Choobus is his own person. If you wish to address him personally, then do so. But to lump everyone together as if we were all the same person is short-sighted, and disrespectul on your part. Reluctant, it is very blatant martyr complex. It is priggish, and it is petty.

  63. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 3:56 am

    Zed: “Reluctant, it is very blatant martyr complex. It is priggish, and it is petty.”
    Agreed. I normally don’t pull out the sturm und drang, but sometimes my dander gets up. Especially when folks don’t walk the talk, if you catch my drift.
    It’s just easier for religious folk to demonize others by slapping them together into 1 target. Easier. And lazier.
    Case in point: I have a dear friend of nearly 30 years, who’s BAX (born again xtian). I’ve also made a friend over at the NoGodBlog, who is also an Xtian. Good guy, walks the walk as it were.
    Because not every Xtian is an enemy, & not every Atheist a friend.
    & that applies to Xtians as well as to us, in the reverse.

  64. Zed
    October 18th, 2005 @ 4:25 am

    “Because not every Xtian is an enemy, & not every Atheist a friend.
    & that applies to Xtians as well as to us, in the reverse.”

    Well, it’s only being human.

  65. Cowardly Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 8:39 am

    I can’t write too much cuz I have to leave for school in a few minutes but I hope Heretic Slayer is still reading this because he was right about my parents. We talked for a couple of hours after dinner. I don’t know what is going to happen but I feel better about everything. I am not going to hang out here cause HS was right about this blog too. There are too many people who sound kinda mental and just a few nice ones who were helpful (and you know who you are).

  66. jahrta
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:09 am

    Reluctant Atheist: I never spoke the words you attributed to me in post 33 :) that was HS – please don’t confuse us

    HS – why is it that theists always froth at the mouth when confronted by those who don’t share their world view or worship their gods? I also find it ridiculous that if someone says an occasional swear word that it throws you guys into a tizzy – people in the real world swear. You should accept this as fact and move on with your life. If you don’t like to swear or view pornography, then don’t. You shouldn’t take it as your personal jihad in life to purge the world of it because it offends you. Most theists offend me, either through their actions in attempting to proselytize the rest of the world into thinking as they do, or by stripping people of their rights in order to do “god’s work.” And how about that lovely war that our evangelical president brought down upon a sovereign nation? what do you think it says that we’re still there killing people after veil came down long ago to reveal that there are no WMD’s and there was no connection whatsoever between saddam and 911? in actuallity, there’s far MORE of a connection between the bush administration and 911. No one ever got their legs blown off by a curse word, and no one ever dropped a 10 megaton charge of pornography onto a mosque in search of “insurgents.”

    Furthermore, HS, to call atheists “culturally depraved” is simply ludicrous – have you any concept the pantheon of great atheist philosophers, scientists, musicians and playwrights? no, of course you don’t.

  67. jahrta
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:10 am

    ok – this just makes me think CA is a troll posing as an atheist.

  68. Heretic Slayer
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:33 am

    Jahrta:
    For heaven’s sake. I never said any of you were culturally depraved (whatever that would mean). I said deprived. You know, some people would have found the allusion to a Frank Sinatra tune semi-funny. One thing that is so clear from reading you all is that you lack humor and, dare I say? the courage of your convictions. The majority of the postings here are inevitably hysterical, dirty, semi-literate and over-emotional. One never sees just plain good-natured joking.

    Though I hadn’t realized it til now, most of you seem to be emotionally deprived, too. Like you jumping on the kid and telling him his parents are abusive and warning him to stand up to them and not let them browbeat him (or whatever). Is it possible that you are describing your own unique experience? In my real life, at least, I have never known a happy atheist.

    As far as the kid is concerned, he better not be a troll. I spent serious time worrying about him. Just because he got turned off by the nutcases, doesn’t make him a troll. But if he hasn’t run into it before, I can believe that it made him queasy. I was an atheist at 17 too. For a couple of years.

    Reluctant Atheist: You are beginning to interest me. What a weird combination of emotion and scripture you are. “& again, I cannot speak for anyone here, but I assure you madam, I only get up in arms when an Xtian starts taking the ‘higher moral ground’ as it were. It’s called Antimonianism” What has Antimonianism got to do with anything, though? I don’t believe that we can live a perfect life on earth– unless by never spouting childish profanities perfection is achieved. It should be that easy!

    If you think the wish to have adults talk like adults and not like naughty 9th graders is perfectionism… yikes! Strive for a higher standard.

  69. jahrta
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:56 am

    HS – Allow me to address a few of your points here:

    “For heaven’s sake. I never said any of you were culturally depraved (whatever that would mean). I said deprived.”

    – this was a typo on my part. I meant type deprived.

    “One thing that is so clear from reading you all is that you lack humor and, dare I say? the courage of your convictions. The majority of the postings here are inevitably hysterical, dirty, semi-literate and over-emotional. One never sees just plain good-natured joking”

    -This is the height of irony and unintentionally hilarious, given the number of theists who come here screaming bloody murder at all of us for not believing in god. As far as semi-literate goes, there are some atheists here who could benefit from a dictionary and a course in the finer points of grammatical composition, but they are FAR exceeded by the fundamentalists who come here looking to pick a fight. To counter your sense of humor issue, I would direct you to the same posts by fundamentalists. They’re not be “kooky and whimsical” when they rant on about us burning in hell, and how we’re not really people, how we shouldn’t be allowed to vote, breed, or what have you. I actually have a great sense of humor. I wrote for comedy magazines in college and if you knew me in real life – which you don’t – you’d realize I am a very happy person when surrounded by people who make me happy, such as my wife. Maybe the reason you’ve never known “a happy atheist” is because they’ve just had enough of being ostricized by society. Another reason atheists might not appear as happy as you think they should be is that they’re aware of what’s going on around them, and the horrors of our world are quite numerous and daunting, once you lose the rose-colored glasses and start looking farther than ten feet beyond your bible.

    “Though I hadn’t realized it til now, most of you seem to be emotionally deprived, too. Like you jumping on the kid and telling him his parents are abusive and warning him to stand up to them and not let them browbeat him (or whatever). Is it possible that you are describing your own unique experience?”

    This is just ridiculous. The only real reason I thought the father might be an imposing or overly harsh figure in this boy’s life is that he bothered to mention his father’s physical size and imposing manner. I didn’t automatically assume he was abusive. As far as my own relationship with my father, he was a great man and not a day goes by when i don’t miss him dearly. Again – you don’t know me.

    “As far as the kid is concerned, he better not be a troll. I spent serious time worrying about him. Just because he got turned off by the nutcases, doesn’t make him a troll. But if he hasn’t run into it before, I can believe that it made him queasy. I was an atheist at 17 too. For a couple of years.”

    So if someone spouts a few swears it makes them a “nutcase”? What does it make someone if they profess a belief in an invisible pressence who can do absolutely anything he wants except make his pressence known in a scientifically documented manner? What if someone believes the earth is 6 thousand years old and that invisible monsters hid dinosaur bones in the mountains in order to throw us off “His divine path”? What if someone believes that an all-powerfull all-loving deity someone became his own son, turned himself mortal and brutally killed himself/his son in order to somehow magically save babies that haven’t been born yet from some “original sin” (read also: eating an apple that a demon, disguised as a snake and allowed to enter paradise by aforementioned “all-powerful deity” tricked them into eating in the first place). What would fostering a belief in any of these things make someone?

  70. Weenie Slayer
    October 18th, 2005 @ 11:23 am

    Jahrta: I sincerely hope that you are a happy person and that you had a loving upbringing and all the rest. That is what I wish for every human being. Still, that leaves the question of where the anger comes from. You say that it is because the fundamentalists come bringing fire and brimstone. Frankly, I haven’t seen a trace of them on this blog but I know that the type exists. So why not just ignore them? I have only been around for about a week but I haven’t seen any so they can’t come often.

    And that doesn’t explain why you go after a really nice guy like Steve G as though he were satan incarnate. No, he dares to argue with you in the most respectful manner possible and you gang up on him, just like your uglier brothers have tried to gang up on me. So while I will accept your protestations of innocence, the nutcases (no, a couple of swears doesn’t put you in that category) do predominate here.

    There is no real conversation going on here at all, even amongst yourselves. Just look at the newest thread– all the discussion consists of is one dumb comment after another. No real attempt to engage the issue, though it is pretty thin gruel, I will say.

    As for the rest. Sigh. Your caricature of Christianity is … unworthy. So in your honor and in Leon’s (Out of the Cave thread) I have changed my handle to Weenie Slayer.

  71. jahrta
    October 18th, 2005 @ 11:39 am

    Most people – myself included – do not “go after” Steve G as you claim. We engage him in civil debate (well, most of us choose to remain civil). Don’t mistake a free exchange of ideas and countering of superstition as “attacking.” Have you ever seen “The McLoughlin Group” or “Meet the Press”? Those shows can get pretty heated at times but people are generally civil to one another. The only real reason people like ghoulslime and choobus react to theists as unilaterally as they do is that they’ve been around long enough to know the irrefutable and undeniable way that virtually all discussions of religion end with theists of a fundamentalist stripe: we’re told we’re all going to burn in hell and they throw a bunch of scripture at us. We show them how the scripture is violent, contradictory, and in some cases downright evil, and they still use it to try to intimidate us. After a while it’s like trying to talk to a screaming child who holds its hands over its ears and keeps on saying “blah blah blah I’m not listening to you” when you continually expose the chinks in their tinfoil armor of lbiblical ogic and reasoning. They take the short route to reach the end of the discussion in order to save as much time and effort as possible, while the theist posts 15 comments about how this is “the very last time I’m coming back here – I mean it…you better not count on me coming back. But since I’m here – my loving god will send you all to hell…blah blah blah yackety schmackety”

    As far as there being “no real conversation going on here” – that’s quite spurious and dismissive of you to state, given that you’ve only been here for one week. This site actually has a lot to offer. Some of the most profound posters are apparently on vacation or something but if you stick around you’ll most likely see quite a few well-rounded individuals saddle up to the proverbial bar to share their thoughts with you on a multitude of topics.

  72. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:30 pm

    jahrta: my apologies. I didn’t qualify it properly, & you’re right, those weren’t your words. Multiple and profuse apologies.

  73. jahrta
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:33 pm

    That’s quite alright. We’re only human.

  74. Choobus
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:37 pm

    Asshole slayer, (or should we just call you Daphne’s mom you silly cow)

    you are essentially a troll, as is the phony cowardly atheist. The pair of you are quite pathetic, if you are not both the same troll. Asshole slayer, don’t you have anything better to do with your life? Get out of the trailer. It may be a double wide, but there is nevertheless a world of experience out there. Sitting on your fat ass wathing Oprah and Jerry Springer all day is not helping you at all. At least learn to cook so your unfortunate children can have some food that wasn’t made by the colonel and delivered to them in buckets. With the money you save you could buy them some books and give them a shot at the life you could never have.

  75. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 12:39 pm

    Heretic/Weenie: “What has Antimonianism got to do with anything, though? I don’t believe that we can live a perfect life on earth– unless by never spouting childish profanities perfection is achieved. It should be that easy!
    If you think the wish to have adults talk like adults and not like naughty 9th graders is perfectionism… yikes! Strive for a higher standard.”
    If you will note, I haven’t spouted any obscenities. It DOES appear that (at least from your sobriquet) that you are taking the higher moral ground. No, I believe I am talking like an adult. Your tone IS condescending at times, and you HAVE lumped us all together at 1 juncture or another.
    And the word you used was deprived, as in culturally. Perhaps you could define the phrase a little better, to bolster your point, please?

  76. Weenie Slayer
    October 18th, 2005 @ 1:23 pm

    Reluctant: One of the problems with having so many of you pile on at once, is that one doesn’t get a chance to clearly differentiate– I did notice that you actually talk like a rational, educated person. Too often when I say you, I mean you corporately. (Otherwise known as “y’all). That being said, I acquit you, personally, of any charge of profanity. I did define culturally deprived a little better above somewhere in that prior plethora of posts. Basically, I was referring to my 35 second ditty which to me screams “Strangers in the Night” (the tune). The culturally deprived was a joke– I actually think it is possible to neither know nor care about Frank Sinatra without being culturally deprived.

    I have decided to take Jahrta up on his challenge and keep reading for awhile to see if there are pockets of challenging discussion going on. If so, maybe I will chime in and, with a different handle. Like what… “Henry the 8th” maybe? You know, defender of the faith. Of course, following that logic I could adopt Ann Boleyn, since I will continue to get my head chopped off…

  77. Choobus
    October 18th, 2005 @ 1:26 pm

    Daphne’s mom/colon slayer, you are very proud of your lame “ditty”. Is this the culture to which you are referring? Is that the extent to which you are cultured? Wow, society has really done a number on you!

  78. Weenie Slayer
    October 18th, 2005 @ 1:49 pm

    There once was a sad sack named choobus
    Whose brains were tucked into his tookus
    You slimy may be,
    But I

  79. Choobus
    October 18th, 2005 @ 1:56 pm

    apparantly tossing things off isn’t your strong point daphne’s mom. You should stick to sucking, you’re very good at that.

    Thanks again for not hesitating to sink to my level. I am a self confessed buffoon with absolutely no interest in engaging godidiots like you in any kind of serious debate, so anything I say is automatically irrelevent, infantile and pointless. You, on the other hand, profess to be better than that, but as you are keen to demonstrate, you are not. This amuses me greatly, and I thank you.

  80. Weenie Slayer
    October 18th, 2005 @ 2:08 pm

    Well, well, well. I am making progress. You are now defending yourself and writing in complete, mostly non-vulgar sentences. This is fantastic! You will soon be singing hymns and taking up the collection. lol!

  81. Choobus
    October 18th, 2005 @ 2:18 pm

    I’m terribly sorry, where are my manners:

    fuck you sideways you mendacious troglodyte of uncertain parentage and undoubted idiocy. May your considerable bulk remain firmly attached to your couch so that unsuspecting children are not unduly terrorized by the unmitigated horror that is you. Furthermore, you are invited to eat my shit to establish an equilibrium of shit going in and out of your mouth, you skanky beast.

  82. speedwell
    October 18th, 2005 @ 2:22 pm

    For what it’s worth (exactly two cents), I think CA sounded like a 17-year-old boy, and you are a bunch of fruitcakes. Oh, I’m a strong ex-Christian atheist myself, but I feel like I dodged a bullet by finding a different group of people from you to talk to about MY doubts. I used to read this site all the time, but got sick of the gibbbering maniacs who post here. I see the situation since then has only gotten worse.

  83. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 3:14 pm

    Weenie:
    Well said, & appreciated. You may want to re-consider your handle, as your prior was a tad more, well, respectable (albeit a tad irksome). & when you’re joking, you may want to use emoticons, or the TLAs (like LOL, that sort of thing). It is apparent that simply putting words on a screen sometimes doesn’t convey the inflection 1 would like.
    & you do have to admit, ” how nasty you all are at the best of times” is easily construed as lumping every1 together.
    I do apologize for losing my temper. Note: this is simply courtesy, nothing else. Courtesy is a sign of maturity, after all. It’s not a sign of weakness.

  84. jahrta
    October 18th, 2005 @ 3:51 pm

    Speedwell said :

    “For what it’s worth (exactly two cents), I think CA sounded like a 17-year-old boy, and you are a bunch of fruitcakes. Oh, I’m a strong ex-Christian atheist myself, but I feel like I dodged a bullet by finding a different group of people from you to talk to about MY doubts. I used to read this site all the time, but got sick of the gibbbering maniacs who post here. I see the situation since then has only gotten worse.”

    Speedwell – for what it’s worth, when evaluating life-altering decisions such as whether or not to become a fully-fledged memeber of the atheist community, it’s rarely considered wise to seek the counsel of people posting on a blog site.

    Assuming that CA wasn’t just a troll, I am remiss for not directing him toward “official” atheist websites, wherein he could be directed toward secularist activities in his community, and get a better perspective for what atheism is, why we feel we are in direct conflict with our increasingly theocratic government, and what to do to make one’s voice heard. The reason I place the word official in quotation marks is that atheism is hard to “officially” pin down – we have no central governing body and no “churches” or figureheads (and no, I’d rather not count Ayn Rand).

  85. hermesten
    October 18th, 2005 @ 5:05 pm

    “Is this what I want to be? Are these the kind of people I want for friends? Think about the good friends you have now and compare. And then there is this little horror to consider… Are these the kinds of men you would want your sisters to marry??? A word to the wise…”

    Yes. Yes. Yes. Personally, I’d rather have my sister marry a drug dealer or a pimp than a fundamentalist Christian. As it is, I tell everyone my mom is a prostitute so I don’t have to admit she’s a Christian.

  86. hermesten
    October 18th, 2005 @ 5:11 pm

    “I would much rather go witrh Satan than spend the afterlife listening to the sort ofd sanctimonius shit you come out with. I feel sorry for your children, and indeed anyone who ever has to listen to the kind of self righteous arrogance that assclowns such as yourself invariably promulgate.”

    Me too! It’s been said here many times before, but then these Bible nutters are always repeating themselves so why shouldn’t we?: heaven for the weather, Hell for the company.

  87. Ann Boleyn
    October 18th, 2005 @ 5:27 pm

    Reluctant: You are ok! Courtesy is not weakness. But the fact that you would think that I would take it so, speaks volumes for the level of discussion that goes on here. I would like to point out that though I can and do stand up for myself, I do not attack first. When I do respond, I stand up for myself with humor (mocking, to be sure), not vulgarity, not profanity and not spewing of rancid poison. But I really would find it refreshing to find a site that is serious. I have checked out yours briefly (I think it is yours!) and while it is still under construction, it looks like there is much of interest to read there.

  88. hermesten
    October 18th, 2005 @ 5:59 pm

    “But the fact that you would think that I would take it so, speaks volumes for the level of discussion that goes on here.”

    I tend to think that most of the atheists here who engage theists in civil and serious discussion are either very new to the game, or very very patient. Steve G. and Frank are the only two theists posting here that have earned any respect. They are the only two who didn’t come here dripping with sanctimony, self-righteousness, and condecension.

    Frankly, I’m getting mighty tired of this same old bullshit line about vulgarity and profanity that seems to be the trendy attack position with the new Bible Beaters posting here. You are not going to come here and control the discourse with a bunch of silly horseshit about profanity. I’m sure I’m not the only one who adds profanity to his comments in direct proportion to the whining I hear about “vulgar” language. This isn’t a polite theology forum for old church ladies, this is an atheist website habituated by people who are fedup to the fucking gills with having your bullshit religion rammed down our fucking throats day in and day out. If you don’t like the terms of debate here, go somewhere else. Most of us simply don’t give a shit whether Bible Beaters post here or not: we come here for the atheists. If I wanted to debate Christians I’d go to a Christian website.

  89. Ann Boleyn
    October 18th, 2005 @ 6:17 pm

    When you grow up, you will understand how foolish you sound. In the meantime, a little Preparation H might do wonders for your disposition.

  90. hermesten
    October 18th, 2005 @ 6:41 pm

    Hey Ann, toss my salad, you sanctimonious wind bag. Then take your religion and shove it up your fat ass –but no fair wanking in the process.

  91. Choobus
    October 18th, 2005 @ 6:43 pm

    Ann, you are exactly the kind of sanctimonious twat that herm was talking about! Why don’t you fuck off to the Christian “we are soo enlightened” sewing circle websites where people talk about important topics, like which version of the bible contains the most truth, or what you should do if your right hand offends you and you cut it off, but then your left hand also offends you and you aren’t sure how to cut that one off.

    You can’t see it, but one of the fingers on my right hand is attempting to offend you right now….

  92. Retarded Clown
    October 18th, 2005 @ 6:59 pm

    Some dork wrote “The meter is slightly off but hey–when you toss these things off in a minute or two… quality gets sacrificed.”

    Choobus wrote

    “apparantly tossing things off isn’t your strong point daphne’s mom. You should stick to sucking, you’re very good at that”

    Excellent! Choobus may be foul mouthed, but that was pretty funny

  93. Ann Boleyn
    October 18th, 2005 @ 7:05 pm

    So let the sun shine in
    Face it with a grin
    Smilers never lose
    And frowners never win
    So let the sun shine in
    Face it with a grin
    Open up your heart
    And let the sun shine in.

    ’nuff said.

  94. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 7:41 pm

    Ann: that was a general commentary, not specific.

    There is (obviously) a lot of rage and hatred here towards your religion (bleedin’ master of the obvious, ain’t I?). While I share the anger somewhat, I try not to pigeonhole people. You may very well be a good person, but I personally feel that you are misled.

    1 of the reasons for the rage and anger is that most revealed religions have a horrendous track record.

    Because words are just that, words. “Deeds, not words, shall speak me” – David Fletcher.
    I feel the inherent abusability of your book of rules has rendered it not only obsolete, but meaningless. I do apologize, but facts are facts. Explanations seem insufficient against the atrocities perpetrated.

    & truthfully, you inveigh against the profanity, & yet subject yourself to it. 1 does wonder at your motives.

    & truthfully as well, I almost offered my advice to CA, except that he’s not my kid, & it’s not my venue to give advice to other people’s children. Just the way I was raised, is all. He WAS looking for a helping hand, & advice. That’s just me.

    If you are in it for the debate, I frequent another blog (sorry, RA!), the NoGodBlog. Of course, I’ve been known to swear on occasion as well (it DOES get frustrating, not being able to get 1’s point across).

    Personally, I feel we are all on this earth together. Neither side can round up the other, & shoot ‘em around back of the shed. Though sometimes, I look on both sides of the fence, & wonder. & blink, double-blink, and think “WTF?” Pardon my french.

    As to the profanity? Well, it is the 1st amendment, after all.

    That’s my nickel’s worth. Spend it freely.

  95. Ann Boleyn
    October 18th, 2005 @ 8:44 pm

    Hmm. You ask some pretty good questions, Reluctant. You wrote for instance: you inveigh against the profanity, & yet subject yourself to it. 1 does wonder at your motives. There are a couple of things going on that play a role. One is that the profanity and vulgarity do not offend me emotionally (if that is the right word), so much as they do intellectually and aesthetically. They are just so plain dumb. And because the level of the Leons, the Hermestens and Choobi of the blog is basically that of the 11th grade locker room, they turn every potential discussion into a schoolboy slug fest. Well, all kids know, or should know that you need to stand up to bullies. They can swear, but they sure can’t discuss.

    Now this is what keeps me here: There is (obviously) a lot of rage and hatred here towards your religion. To me, this bespeaks a mindset so ahistorical that it is hard to know where to start dissecting this. I don’t have much problem with people disagreeing over the truth claims of Christianity but the level of rage is irrational. I won’t try to argue this tonight but it is a potential discussion point.

    You also wrote: 1 of the reasons for the rage and anger is that most revealed religions have a horrendous track record. Does atheism have a better one? If it doesn’t (and it doesn’t), then we have to ask where the failures come from. It is not self-evident. That becomes another potential discussion point. Since revealed religions have reigned through most of human history and been embraced to one degree or another by the overwhelming majority of mankind, how does hating them not become simply hating people? And, if I am right, which, then, is the dangerous side?

    And then there is this, which also interests me: I feel the inherent abusability of your book of rules has rendered it not only obsolete, but meaningless. I do apologize, but facts are facts. Explanations seem insufficient against the atrocities perpetrated.

    Facts are not facts, lol! This is your opinion and it is discussable (which is a horrid neologism). The Constitution can be and has been abused but I am not ready to throw it out. It is still the best set of rules for government that the mind of men has ever devised.

    So does this other blog you mention deal with such issues seriously? This one sure doesn’t seem to be able to.

  96. Ann Boleyn
    October 18th, 2005 @ 8:46 pm

    Hmm. You ask some pretty good questions, Reluctant. You wrote for instance: you inveigh against the profanity, & yet subject yourself to it. 1 does wonder at your motives. There are a couple of things going on that play a role. One is that the profanity and vulgarity do not offend me emotionally (if that is the right word), so much as they do intellectually and aesthetically. They are just so plain dumb. And because the level of the Leons, the Hermestens and Choobi of the blog is basically that of the 11th grade locker room, they turn every potential discussion into a schoolboy slug fest. Well, all kids know, or should know that you need to stand up to bullies. They can swear, but they sure can’t discuss.

    Now this is what keeps me here: There is (obviously) a lot of rage and hatred here towards your religion. To me, this bespeaks a mindset so ahistorical that it is hard to know where to start dissecting this. I don’t have much problem with people disagreeing over the truth claims of Christianity but the level of rage is irrational. I won’t try to argue this tonight but it is a potential discussion point.

    You also wrote: 1 of the reasons for the rage and anger is that most revealed religions have a horrendous track record. Does atheism have a better one? If it doesn’t (and it doesn’t), then we have to ask where the failures come from. It is not self-evident. That becomes another potential discussion point. Since revealed religions have reigned through most of human history and been embraced to one degree or another by the overwhelming majority of mankind, how does hating them not become simply hating people? And, if I am right, which, then, is the dangerous side?

    And then there is this, which also interests me: I feel the inherent abusability of your book of rules has rendered it not only obsolete, but meaningless. I do apologize, but facts are facts. Explanations seem insufficient against the atrocities perpetrated.

    Facts are not facts, lol! This is your opinion and it is discussable (which is a horrid neologism). The Constitution can be and has been abused but I am not ready to throw it out. It is still the best set of rules for government that the mind of men has ever devised.

    So does this other blog you mention deal with such issues seriously? This one sure doesn’t seem to be able to.

  97. Zed
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:12 pm

    “Since revealed religions have reigned through most of human history and been embraced to one degree or another by the overwhelming majority of mankind, how does hating them not become simply hating people? And, if I am right, which, then, is the dangerous side?”

    Ann, all those people with a horrendous track record aren’t real Atheists. No more than the following link leads to exemplary Christians right?

    http://www.godhatesfags.com/

    These people call themselves Christian; why don’t you debate them on their merits?

  98. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:21 pm

    Ann: 1stly:
    Does atheism have a better one? If it doesn’t (and it doesn’t), then we have to ask where the failures come from. .
    I assume here you are referring to the French revolution, which was decidedly a black for ‘my people’ as it were. If you are indirectly referencing Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, those were distinctly political agendas, not motivated by atheism, but by a bulldozing methodology. Interesting factoid: Stalin was actually raised Russian orthodox. Also, most revealed religions have by far (and still are) an ongoing issue w/the mistreatment of others. Rarely does 1 hear about a crazed atheist bombing a clinic, or comitting some personal atrocity. Most atheists are indeed well-behaved. As opposed to book-burnings, women’s rights, oh, the list, it do go on.

    2ndly:
    Well, all kids know, or should know that you need to stand up to bullies.
    Point taken, as I grew up a bullied child. But this is hardly a physical confrontation. You could walk away from it (not telling, just pointing it out).

    3rdly:
    but the level of rage is irrational.
    Actually, rage is irrational, on most levels. But it is also a component of being human. & I confess, I share some of their rage at your religion. It’s called empathy. Empathy for other human beings.

    4thly:
    Facts are not facts, lol! This is your opinion and it is discussable (which is a horrid neologism). The Constitution can be and has been abused but I am not ready to throw it out.
    How interesting. How has the Constitution been abused? & while we’re at it, by whom, exactly? We may have widely varying opinions about how it can be, and how it has been.

    5thly:
    how does hating them not become simply hating people
    Actually, a very telling point. It is inherent in the human condition to confuse the message w/the messenger. Sometimes it is guilt by association, which isn’t fair, in some cases. To wit: I have a very close friend who is BAX. We have some interesting conversations (he’s a Fundie, BTW). I have made an Xtian friend on the NoGodBlog. However, we have people like Robertson, observing we should ‘dispatch special operatives’, we have Falwell, who proclaims that any1 who isn’t a BAX is a failed human being, we have a dipstick Shrub in office who claims God told him to invade Iraq (but left out the part about Katrina: fancy that), we have the ongoing slaughter of Prots vs. Cats in Ireland, we have ‘Faith-based’ initiatives (I don’t recall voting for that), I mean, I could easily fill in a thousand words, & not even be close to being done.
    Small wonder, then, that we the infidels are just a touch nervous.
    Fear breeds rage. Rage breeds hatred. I for 1 would really appreciate it if Xtians would sit on their hands and wait for the 2nd coming: THEN they can say, “I told ya! Niener, niener niener.”
    I for 1 would espouse ‘live and let live’. I’d just like it if people kept their hands off my constitutional rights.
    Sorry for the mini-rant. Short version: do as you like. But leave room for the rest of us. Please.
    If you visit my website, my short intro states that I do not detest people. I detest mindsets.
    More importantly, I espouse free will, from an atheist viewpoint. Because it becomes readily apparent that Xtians preach it, but don’t practice it.
    6thly:
    Facts are not facts, lol! This is your opinion and it is discussable
    I refer you to my semi-lengthy list from point 5.

    That’s my nickel’s worth. Spend it wisely, & well.

  99. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:23 pm

    Ann:
    “So does this other blog you mention deal with such issues seriously?”
    Come & see.

  100. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:28 pm

    Zed:
    Yep, the ole ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy. I’ d be willing to make allowance for a few, but so damned many? Res ipsa loquitur, ‘the thing speaks for itself’.

  101. Ann Boleyn
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:38 pm

    Too tired to do your post justice tonight, Reluctant. But had to respond to one piece: the minute I saw “godhatesfags” I knew, absolutely knew without looking who that was. I gotta tell you that they long since stopped being Christians if they ever were. Westboro is mainly made up of the extended family of that lunatic Phelps. But I saw this discussion on another thread and if I can find it, I will reference it. The gist of the conversation was that from your point of view, they say they are Christians so they must be. We see them and Pat Robertson and laugh or are horrified (as appropriate) to the extent we think about them at all. Most of us don’t see much we recognize as Christian. But from your point of view I do see how that would be a difficult distinction to make.

  102. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:43 pm

    Ann:
    “But from your point of view I do see how that would be a difficult distinction to make.”
    But I can make a distinction. Wesly, Wilberforce, and the Quakers in the abolitionist movement, for 1. I do understand the difference.
    Problem is, the ‘true’ Xtians seem to be in the minority, as it were.

  103. Zed
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:49 pm

    “Most of us don’t see much we recognize as Christian. But from your point of view I do see how that would be a difficult distinction to make.”

    No true Scotsman indeed Reluctant. I would use the same “Most of us” argument, but it would be disrespectful to speak for other Atheists, as they admit to each having a personal view on life, aside from the same ultimate skepticism of the existence of any gods. Still, I wonder then, why doesn’t Ann debate people like Phelps, and Robertson if they aren’t really Christian? You’d think it’d be enough to focus on maintaining your own, rather than continuously disrespectfully coming into other people’s space. It feels like telemarketing where no matter how much you tell them you’re not interested in their plans, they still insist you’re missing out, when in reality you just don’t like using their kind of service.

  104. Zed
    October 18th, 2005 @ 9:50 pm

    “Most of us don’t see much we recognize as Christian. But from your point of view I do see how that would be a difficult distinction to make.”

    No true Scotsman indeed Reluctant. I would use the same “Most of us” argument, but it would be disrespectful to speak for other Atheists, as they admit to each having a personal view on life, aside from the same ultimate skepticism of the existence of any gods. Still, I wonder then, why doesn’t Ann debate people like Phelps, and Robertson if they aren’t really Christian? You’d think it’d be enough to focus on maintaining your own, rather than continuously disrespectfully coming into other people’s space. It feels like telemarketing where no matter how much you tell them you’re not interested in their plans, they still insist you’re missing out, when in reality you just don’t like using their kind of service.

  105. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:03 pm

    Zed:
    All good points. Of course, I’d balk at debating any of those people: they’re very scary folk. Doubt they have their own blogs, however, & dissenting opinions swirl down into the bulk email bin. Some people lump us all in a batch: it’s hard not to, as it makes an easier target. I forget what fallacy that is, offhand.
    I feel that as a rule, most people (Xtian or atheist) are fairly decent folks: it IS the aberrations that make the news.
    Of course, history has many examples of the smaller group ruling the larger. We hand off far too much to others, out of convenience and shortsightedness.
    The Dominion theonomists are a perfect example. A distinct minority. But they have their fingers in the Shrub pie, as it were. Those folk are scary.
    There are Xtians who believe in Seperation of church and state. Some of them even espouse evolution.
    My major objection is ruling thru fear: it’s no way to live, not for anyone.

  106. Ann Boleyn
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:22 pm

    Theonomy! Great jumpin’ Jehosophat, they have never had much success or much influence. Rushdooney (if I recall his name correctly) made a minor splash 15 years ago, or more, and has more or less dropped off all our radar screens. I would find it as profitable to “debate ” him as to debate a flat earther. As for Phelps, it would be easier and less disgusting to debate Choobus. Which ought to tell you something.

    What does Rushdooney have now? 27 followers in Orem, Idaho? The idea that he has any influence in Washington is, so far as I know, preposterous. These are all bogey men to scare credulous atheists with. Now, if I took them seriously, they would be scary but since you all don’t understand us well enough to make the distinctions necessary, your spend your life worrying about theocracy and Christian fascists, etc. while we look at each other and shake our heads in disbelief. That Zed, to answer your question, is why I and the other Dawn orphans are dropping in here to see if there is any honest debate going on. Maybe we could shed some light on the issues that are really worth worrying about and those that you can put aside. We are acquainted with TRA from his posts in our territory and, having a lot of respect for him, assumed that his blog would be equally worthy of respect. You see what has come of that.

    Now, I really am going to bed. I will try to address other interesting points you made, RA, tomorrow.

  107. Zed
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:25 pm

    “My major objection is ruling thru fear: it’s no way to live, not for anyone.”

    My major objection is being haughty, hypocritical, and disrespectfully self-righteous toward another only because they don’t follow in tune with your line of thinking. Sure, we can’t all agree on topics anti-thetical, but when they’re based in a world of insubstantial whimsy, why even bother, if not just to keep the fairness? I guess man’s drive to impose will, no matter how stupid, or ridiculous is just too strong, far beyond the humility necessary to sit back, and reflect enough on what one truly sees, not just what one likes to see.

  108. Zed
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:28 pm

    “… they have never had much success or much influence.”

    Sure they have. One of them’s called the president, and he claims God tells him to strike down on other nations. Had he said it was him who’d thought up the brilliant idea, I’d have more respect for him, but that is not the case.

  109. Choobus
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:28 pm

    Arse Boleyn,

    why don’t you take stock of yourself and all the other godidiots, including your man Phelps. He’s one of you baby, and aren’t you proud. He is th elogical conclusion of all that you stand for, which completely justifies me telling you to go and fuck yourself, and indeed demands that I do more. The worst kind of scum is your kind, because you don’t even know how despicable you are. Say hi to your Phelps clones the next time to go to church won’t you shitsucker.

    your pal,

    Choobus.

    PS, please do wrtite another of your brilliant songs. I like it when godidiots do my work for me and expose their own limited intellects. You skanky beast.

  110. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:37 pm

    Zed: oh goody, the old ‘boogeyman’ theory.
    Shrub’s been in bed w/the RR for years. He and his father. Old news. Rushdooney’s the structure they’ve built on.
    “My major objection is being haughty, hypocritical, and disrespectfully self-righteous toward another only because they don’t follow in tune with your line of thinking.”
    Correct. & how do they accomplish it? Thru fear. Prime motivator. “God-fearing”, fear your own physical needs & desires, a great many invidious memes.

    Ann: “The idea that he has any influence in Washington is, so far as I know, preposterous.”
    Might I humbly suggest you get out more often?

  111. Ann Boleyn
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:38 pm

    Great balls of fire, I barely refresh my page and there is Zed with another atheist fantasy. Mr. Bush did not say that God told him to strike down other nations or, in version 1, to invade Iraq. The Muslim who claimed that recanted that story Monday? Sunday? It made all the papers. Time to let that fable go. (Would you like me to do a lexis-nexis search for you and give you a cite to follow up? Or would you prefer to believe your fable?)

  112. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:43 pm

    Ann:
    “Mr. Bush did not say that God told him to strike down other nations or, in version 1, to invade Iraq.”
    Please. Cite your sources. Secular, please.

  113. Zed
    October 18th, 2005 @ 10:58 pm

    Atheist fantasy? No such thing:

    “God told me to strike at al-Qaida and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37944-2003Jun26?language=printer

    That’s from season 1, not unlike the more scurrilous season 2 just now happening this October.

  114. Reluctant Atheist
    October 18th, 2005 @ 11:17 pm

    Ann:
    From another source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051006/ts_alt_afp/mideastbritainusiraq_051006214432
    “LONDON (AFP) – US President George W. Bush allegedly said God told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, a new BBC documentary will reveal, according to details.”
    Zed & I have provided 2 seperate news sources.
    Your turn.

  115. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 12:08 am

    “Neither side can round up the other, & shoot ‘em around back of the shed.”

    Don’t count on it. This is exactly what the Ann’s of the world will do to you if they ever get enough power.

    Also, the Chimp was talking about following God’s orders years before the latest report. The Israeli press had articles about the Chimp making the same claim about two years ago, but to a Jewish audience. Bush is a fucking nut job who is trying to hasten the apocalypse.

    Those of you who think you can reason with people like Daphne’s mom, Ann B, HS, et al, are kidding yourselves. These people have nothing but contempt for you and it oozes from their every post. Choobus has the right idea: you have to return their contempt with your contempt. When you kiss their ass by treating them with undeserved respect they don’t respect you for your reason, they just think you’re weak. The time for toleration is long past. They aren’t going to tolerate us and we cannot afford to tolerate them.

    If you’d rather submit to their concept of “proper” discourse, if you want to let them determine the terms of debate, if you’re prepared to “watch what you say,” and accept their conditions for what you may read, and what movies you may watch, and accept their terms for who you can have sex with under what conditions, and even the terms of your employment, go ahead, make nice.

    I’m an atheist who is born again, hard. You can fight or you can kneel. It’s time now for militant atheism. Stop tolerating this theistic nonsense. Treat these Christian nutters with the same respect you would treat a Muslim fundamentalist, for they are fundamentally the same. Stop debating them like they have something to say that is worth listening to. Refuse to accept their Christian insanity and wield intolerance like a sword to drive them back under the rocks of ignorance and intolerance they crawled out from. You can’t tolerate a tyrant and remain free.

  116. Choobus
    October 19th, 2005 @ 12:31 am

    Herm,

    I salute you sir. I could not agree more. In some ways, I would go a step further and say that these assclowns are WORSE than islamic fundamentalists, because they are in disguise. They do not even have the balls to state what they really think, and keep all of their hateful ideology couched in socially acceptable terms, and all the while they are scheming to indoctrinate the world, and destroy those who will not comply. Fuck them all I say. I get a lot of stick for my agressive reactions to these cunts, but I don’t care. they make me sick and I have no problem telling them all about it. I just wish I could do more. Hypocrisy is the least of their loathesome ways, and for me that alone is too much.

    Daphne’s heretic ass slaying retard cunt mom is essentially a troll, and no doubt a fat borderline retarded corn fed bitch to boot, so the less respect I can show for that cunt the better. I feel that she owes steve G and frank apologies, even though they are also barking up the wrong tree, at least they don’t want to climb that tree and defecate on everyone else from an arbitrarily contrived position of “moral” superiority.

    Such foul positure may be prevalent, but it most certainly need not be tolerated, and I will not allow it to go unchallenged.

  117. Reluctant Atheist
    October 19th, 2005 @ 1:41 am

    Choobus, herm:
    I would like both of you to email me at reluctantatheist@yahoo.com, as I’d like to discuss some matters w/both of you.
    & before either laugh, snort, or swear at me, what I have to say is relevant to the cause.

  118. Choobus
    October 19th, 2005 @ 2:47 am

    nice try reluctant, but if you want my e mail address forget it.

    You can find a link to my e mail in the forums if you really have something to say

  119. Reluctant Atheist
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:10 am

    Choobus:
    Huh? Why would I want it? I asked for it. I offered mine.
    That’s fine. I am unclear as to why I’d want it. I’m just another atheist. Maybe I’m unclear as to netiquette. Am I missing something here? Sorry if I stepped over a line that I’m unaware of.

  120. Choobus
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:42 am

    Well then reluctant, whatever it is you have to say, why don’t you say it here?

  121. Reluctant Atheist
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:55 am

    Choobus:
    Because its atheists only. (I can hear the Xtians now: “What? What’re they whispering about?”).
    Is there an Atheists Only thread, or whatnot, on this site?
    That’s okay. I haven’t really earned your trust yet, & I can understand that.
    I’ll let it go for now.
    Skip it.

  122. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 9:08 am

    Hope this is enough so you can track down the whole article.

    Copyright 2005 Associated Press
    All Rights Reserved
    Associated Press Worldstream

    October 7, 2005 Friday

    SECTION: INTERNATIONAL NEWS

    DISTRIBUTION: Europe; Britian; Scandinavia; Middle East; Africa; India; Asia; England

    LENGTH: 238 words

    HEADLINE: Palestinian leader denies US president said God told him to attack Iraq

    DATELINE: JERUSALEM

    RA: Are you sure that you want anything to do with Choobi and Hermi? Read those last two posts slowly and savor the flavor. Read them aloud to your mother. Think about leaving your 3 year old daughter alone in a room with them for 10 minutes. Send shivers up your spine? It ought to. That is not the way rational people think or talk.

  123. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 9:39 am

    Hey Ann, could you be a little more specific in your accusations about a “3 year old daughter?” Step right up and spell it out for us, my attorney is waiting, and I’d like to add a hottub to my swimming pool and buy my wife a new Viper. You are one vile nasty bitch to accuse someone you don’t even know of the worst crime one can be accused of. You’d better be using a proxy cause’ I’m gonna get a court order for your IP address.

  124. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 9:40 am

    Reluctant, I don’t have any qualms about sending you an email. I’ll try to get around to it today, but after Ann’s last post I’m going to be busy with my attorney for awhile.

  125. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 10:29 am

    OK Reluctant, I sent you an email.

  126. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 10:44 am

    Take a chill pill, Herme. Nobody is accusing you of any crime, though ranting as you and the Choob do ought to be one. Your language is horrible. If you won’t bridle your tongue here, why would you around children? People’s mothers and grandmothers? Maybe you act normally in real life but it is not self-evident from the way you don’t hesitate to express yourself here and in front of who knows who? Do you doubt that there are children who read this stuff, too? Not 3 year olds, to be sure, but youngsters.

  127. Viole
    October 19th, 2005 @ 10:55 am

    You must not be a catholic, right Ann? Because it would be pretty hypocritical of you to accuse Herm and Choob of child molestation while your own priesthood is raping little boys. And considering Pope Ratzinger defended the church’s actions makes me think the pedophile priests are still out their, preying on innocents.

    Kind of makes pedophilia look like a good analogy for religion in general.

    Anyway, perhaps you should try to learn something before tossing off vile and unnecessary accusations? I for one would be much happier leaving my hypothetical three year old with Herm or Choob.

    From you, on the other hand, I would require a written oath, signed by seven witnesses and filed with my attorney, that you wouldn’t mention religion in her presence. Then I’d require video and audio surveillance of both of your for the entire time.

    Well, not really. I would demand a promise from you not to talk to her about religion, though. Deer, sweet Uncle Herm, though, could pose no serious danger to an innocent child. Choobus–well, Choob can behave himself when he has to.

    Of course, I wouldn’t leave any child of mine with someone I’d met on the internet without knowing them pretty well in-person first.

  128. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 11:26 am

    What is it with you people? I call them on their horrid language and you turn it into child molestation! Your minds are so ugly!

    Honestly, let’s just parse Herme’s latest post:

    “Neither side can round up the other, & shoot ‘em around back of the shed.”

    Don’t count on it. This is exactly what the Ann’s of the world will do to you if they ever get enough power.

    This is just lousy. No, I don’t mean the grammatical mistake, I mean the baseless accusation. There have been round-ups and shootings of different groups of people in the world in the last 200 years but were any of them the work of Christians?

    When you kiss their ass by treating them with undeserved respect they don’t respect you for your reason, they just think you’re weak. The time for toleration is long past. They aren’t going to tolerate us and we cannot afford to tolerate them.

    What respect have these two shown anyone other than the like-minded? So, though no atheists have ever been rounded up in this country, you aren’t going to tolerate us. What are you going to do? Shoot us first? Ridiculous.

    The truth is, I don’t actually believe that these guys are anything but neighborhood blow-hards. But their language and they disrespect they show for anyone not like them is very tough to listen to.

    Sweet Uncle Herm? Ye gads. I have seen nothing likeable about him. I will take your word for it that there is more there than vulgar bluster.

  129. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 12:36 pm

    “There have been round-ups and shootings of different groups of people in the world in the last 200 years but were any of them the work of Christians?”

    Yep. Plenty of them. You need to read a little history and keep up with current events. Christians killing Muslims in Bosnia, most recently. Catholics killing protestants in Britain and Ireland. Protestants killing Catholics in Ireland. In the US colonies the puritans killed the Amish for heretical beliefs. Christians wiped out 95% of the native population of North America in a very short time and destoyed every written record they could find of the ancient cultures in Mexico, Central, and South America.

    Nazi Germany was also a Christian Nation. Hitler didn’t kill all those millions by himself: the vast majority of those doing the killing were Christians. Only a very small minority of Christians opposed the Nazi regime. One of those Christians, Dr. James Luther Adams (who worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as The Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer), escaped Germany for the US, taught at Harvard Divnity School, and warned his students some 20 years ago about the emerging Christian fascism in the US. See Christian Fascists There haven’t been more abuses only because Christians haven’t had the power to abuse.

    “So, though no atheists have ever been rounded up in this country, you aren’t going to tolerate us. What are you going to do? Shoot us first?”

    Most of the atheists here are non-violent and anti-war. Most of the “Christians” here are pro-war and very quick to suggest the use of violence. Usually, like their Furher, they are chickenhawks, and love war when someone else is doing the fighting and dying.

    I was quite clear about what I meant, and it did not include any threat of violence. I repeat: Stop tolerating this theistic nonsense. Treat these Christian nutters with the same respect you would treat a Muslim fundamentalist, for they are fundamentally the same. “Stop debating them like they have something to say that is worth listening to. Refuse to accept their Christian insanity and wield intolerance like a sword to drive them back under the rocks of ignorance and intolerance they crawled out from.

    And I have yet to accuse anyone posting here of being a child molester, but maybe we’ll work your accusation out in court.

    “What respect have these two shown anyone other than the like-minded? ”

    Steve G. and Frank are far from being “like minded.” However, they are not sanctimonious and condescending like you and most of the other Christians posting here, and they are generally respected by all the atheists here, including Choobus. I don’t have much to say to them myself, because I’ve heard all this Christian apologetics before, many times.

    But these two are the basic refutation that you can reason with Christians, since out of all the Christians posting here, they are probably the only two reasonable Christians, anyone posting here for awhile, can name.

  130. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 1:28 pm

    OK. You achieved your purpose. I see that it is impossible to discuss anything with you. Let’s recap: This isn’t a polite theology forum for old church ladies, this is an atheist website habituated by people who are fedup to the fucking gills with having your bullshit religion rammed down our fucking throats day in and day out. If you don’t like the terms of debate here, go somewhere else. Most of us simply don’t give a shit whether Bible Beaters post here or not: we come here for the atheists. If I wanted to debate Christians I’d go to a Christian website.

    This piece of lovely prose is interesting on all sorts of levels. For one thing, I have not, I don’t believe, even mentioned the dreadful G word. What I have tried to do is get some insight into a mindset that I, frankly, do not understand. But no matter what, I can’t get past the vile language and minds so vulgar that you cannot even speak without spewing poison. And then you push it into the stratisphere by claiming that I have accused you of a crime. I wonder if you really believe that or if you are just trying to turn the cyber bullying into harrassment.

    Thankfully most of the others just leave it at cursing. And a very few have been reasonable and civil.

    However, as I say, you have convinced me. There is nothing here that can answer any question I have.

  131. Choobus
    October 19th, 2005 @ 1:44 pm

    This vacuous cretin reminds me of George out of Seinfeld: the more she says the more apparant it is that she is a twisted selfish and all around shitty kind of person, but in her mind her statements and positions are perfectly reasonable. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions then this fat cow is cruising that road on her segway, singing banal tunes of her own devising and complimenting herself for all the great things she says and does. The truth is assholes like this are disturbing. They do not even understand the extent to which they and their ilk are a pulling humanity in general down to the level of the dark ages. Willful ignorance and low intellect aside, it is the putrageous pride of this bitch that leads to her most odious traits. Since you have Bible-vision and cannot see anything that doesn’t fit in with your godidiot viewpoint let me spell this simple point out for you in terms clear enough for someone who thinks a dead jewish dude gives a flying fuck about what they do.

    I have NO respect for you, and I have never intimated otherwise. Indeed, I have gone out of my way to make this obvious to you. I don’t want to have any rational debates with you, I think you are a cunt of the highest order, and I would be well pleased if I had ever annoyed you in any way shape or form. I give you the respect you deserve, which is NONE AT ALL. If you don’t like it why don’t you fuvk off? It has become quite obvious that you are a troll, so I am wondering if you do not have a bridge to lurk beneath? Failing that, you are at least qualified for many of the villiage idiot positions currently available.

    You will notice that Steve G, the generic “reasonable theist” has never been subjected to any attacks from me. Why? Because he is not an asshole. You on the other hand essentially define the figurative meaning of that term. I say again: you are a collosal asshole. You are a self righteous, sanctimonious asshole! Your child molesting rant is frankly bizarre, and speaks volumes about your intrinsic arrogance you filthy fat troglodyte. The fact that you were able to persuade someone to fuck you is hard to imagine (one can only assume much moonshine was flowing in your trailer park on those occasions), and your children are already in grave peril, but not from me or people like me, but from the intolerant religious “culture” you and your hordes of non-thinking associates strive for. If one of your kids turns out to be gay what will you do, support them, or send them to a christian re-education center?

    you think all you’ve done is call us on language? Not so. What you have done is troll an atheist website, attempt to mock the atheists and then turned tail and cried foul when they put you straight on your godidiocy. If you don’t like that go to Billy Graham’s website, or better still, god hates fags or one of those, because that is where you will find people almost as dumb as you, and that is where your hateful diatribes will be warmly recieved.

    Good day to you, bitch extrodinairre.

  132. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 1:47 pm

    So why even post a reply? Why not just go away?

    You must be old and clueless if you don’t think young Christians use profanity. But the question I must ask is this: why post on an atheist website? Did you come here to teach us something? If you came here to learn, why make sanctimonious and provocative posts?

    If you are indeed not a Christian of the persuasion of say, Bob Enyart, who wants to excute abortion doctors, adulterers, pornographers, and homosexuals, and can barely utter a sentence on his TV show without the word “homosexual” used as an eptitat, why aren’t you posting on fundie websites and telling them how they are perverting the “Christian” message?

    Why aren’t you more worried about those who are polluting your “faith” and giving your religion a bad name than those who completely reject your religion? Even Steve G. concedes that these people make up a good 10% of the population, while others say it’s more like 20%. Seems to me there are more of these people to worry about than atheists who cast no relfection on your religion. If you are defending your religion against these people, supply us with some links so we can read what you have to say on the subject. Unlike you, I don’t go to places where people hold different beliefs and post messages to piss them off. I’ll just read what you have to say there.

  133. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 2:24 pm

    Hermesten: As I and other Dawn orphans have said, somewhere, I came here because I became “acquainted” as it were, with TRA via Dawn Eden’s blog. We like and respect TRA there. I thought this place would be worthy of respect too, since atheism is, I think, a viable philosophy. However, it isn’t worthy of respect from an intellectual standpoint. It is your playground and you are right. I shouldn’t be here. And, since there is nothing worthwhile I can accomplish here, I will bow out, as you wish.

    However, as hopeless as it is, I will restate what should be obvious: I have not tried to shove my religion down anyone’s throat. I have tried to correct some incorrect statements of fact. Utter failure. You know what you want to believe.

    Who is Bob Enyart? Seriously, I have never heard of him, though if he says the kinds of things you attribute to him, I can’t be missing much. For the record, I do not want to and I don’t know any one who does want to “excute abortion doctors, adulterers, pornographers, and homosexuals”. That is repulsive and chilling.

    Finally, if you know of any “fundie” sites, and can point me to one or more of them, I will take a look. If they don’t ban me up front, following your suggestion would actually make excellent sense. But I don’t hold out a lot of hope. They can really be vile, if the phelps site is any indication. But that makes them indistinguishable from y’all. There really should be food for thought for you in that truthful observation.

    Now, I will check back to see if you can point me to a “fundie” site but, unless you *really* want an answer of some kind, I am going to accept your kind invitation to go away.

  134. Viole
    October 19th, 2005 @ 2:51 pm

    Well, Ann, I’ll give you that ‘sweet’ is probably a bad choice of words. Cantankerous probably fits better, but still lovable.

    I’ll tell you Ann, I’ve been around here a bit longer than you. I know some of the regular posters fairly well. Rather few of them are stupid or ignorant, for all their occasionally limited vocabulary. Even Choobus is pretty smart when he decides to show it. Try actually debating something. Pretty much all I’ve seen you do so far is rail about the language used. Since most of us a socially liberal or libertarian, you should probably give up on that one. Just saying.

  135. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:01 pm

    I didn’t tell you to go away, I merely questioned why you continue to post at such a vile site that cannot answer any of your questions. To his credit, RA provides a completely open forum. That means you can’t come here insulting people, all full of sanctimonious condescension, and expect not to be insulted in return, then whine about the language without one of us responding.

    Bob Enyart is another fundie with a TV show in Oklahoma and other places in the Bible Belt. Tom Coburn, republican US senator, Oklahoma, has called for executing abortion doctors. And I believe it was old Tom who got turned on by the nudity in Schindler’s List.

    I have no interest in fundie websites; I get enough religion everyday without looking for more. And I didn’t say you rammed your religion down anyones throat. I said: “This isn’t a polite theology forum for old church ladies, this is an atheist website habituated by people who are fedup to the fucking gills with having your bullshit religion rammed down our fucking throats day in and day out.” This is obviously referring to experience in real life, not on this website.

  136. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:32 pm

    I must also point out Ann, that I did not directly insult you until you insulted me. Your first post on this thread went something like this:

    Ann to Reluctant: ” Courtesy is not weakness. But the fact that you would think that I would take it so, speaks volumes for the level of discussion that goes on here.”

    “When I do respond, I stand up for myself with humor (mocking, to be sure), not vulgarity, not profanity and not spewing of rancid poison.”

    My subsequent post did use profanity because you whined about vulgarity and profanity, but the closest thing to an insult was this statement about Steve G and Frank: “They are the only two who didn’t come here dripping with sanctimony, self-righteousness, and condecension.”; or perhaps this one: ” You are not going to come here and control the discourse with a bunch of silly horseshit about profanity. ” —which I concede is vulgar, but I don’t concede to be “insulting.”

    Your response –smug, condescending, and insulting: “When you grow up, you will understand how foolish you sound. In the meantime, a little Preparation H might do wonders for your disposition.”

    So, if you want to post here and not be insulted, stop being insulting. And get off your high horse. You don’t have to use profanity to sling mud. Don’t sling mud and then cry about it when you get dirty.

  137. Tenspace
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:33 pm

    Ann said, “Think about leaving your 3 year old daughter alone in a room with them for 10 minutes. Send shivers up your spine?”

    Then Ann said, “What is it with you people? I call them on their horrid language and you turn it into child molestation! Your minds are so ugly!”

    I hope you are able to see how your insinuation was turned into child molestation. That’s what it sounded like you were conveying to me, as well.

    Come post in the forums! Choobus promises he won’t rail you with vulgarities… unless you end up like many theists, ignoring facts and references, quoting bible verse and resorting to namecalling.

    You know, after reviewing this thread, I discovered that Choobus kept it quite civil in his first few posts. He did say, “All you need to remember is to rely on honest discussion, reason and science and do not accept anything on “faith” as this is another way of saying “shut the fuck up and just believe already.” Funny how you zeroed in on the swear words, and didn’t address his logic. If you find that one “F” word was offensive, did you think it was right for HereticSlayer to attack Choob? Here’s HS’s immediate comment …”even though you will have to wash your brain after reading those little grace notes added by choobus and qedpro. Unfortunately, for every sane atheist here, there are at least 5 dirty-minded psychopaths. I really hope you will go away soon. You might go blind reading some of these … people. ”

    Yesl, that would piss me off too (sorry for the word “piss”, I hope it doesn’t offend you)… I may maintain more of a courteous and professional front in my postings, but Choobus would rather not listen to the BS spouted every single day at us by the believers in the God of Abraham.

    Amazing how this thread degraded into a potty-mouth discussion and ignored the salient posts of Choobus, Paul, Zed, and others.

  138. Tenspace
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:35 pm

    Herme pointed out that Ann said, “Your response –smug, condescending, and insulting: “When you grow up, you will understand how foolish you sound. In the meantime, a little Preparation H might do wonders for your disposition.”

    :D Yeah, that was my favorite, too. Haven’t heard a belittling like that since middle school. :D

  139. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:39 pm

    Yeah, but the Preparation H remark gave her age away.

  140. hermesten
    October 19th, 2005 @ 3:43 pm

    “I hope you are able to see how your insinuation was turned into child molestation. That’s what it sounded like you were conveying to me, as well.”

    That’s what she obviously intended to convey. It’s just that she got some shivers up her spine when I started talking about libel and lawyers. You think people get “shivers up their spine” worrying about a 3 year old hearing a bad word? I think she must have missed the Church lecture on plausible deniability.

  141. Reluctant Atheist
    October 19th, 2005 @ 4:16 pm

    Ann:
    Am unsure as to whether or not you are still listening, after the thorough drubbing you’ve received, but here it is:
    A. Am a middle-aged man, so am not in need of advice as to whom I may talk to.
    B. Am unsure why you couldn’t provide a link, instead of a headliner.

    W/that out of the way:
    You owe an apology to those two gentlemen.
    While you did not outright accuse either of them, you did INFER such a thing. In this country, a hint of such a thing as untrustworthy around children is sufficient to destroy lives. It is distinctly uncool. Such innuendoes ravage careers, lay waste to other people’s lifestyles.
    Small wonder then, that you felt the lash of outrage.

    So, in keeping w/the precepts of your religion, you should evince some humility, & state that this was not your intention, and say you’re sorry.

    It is, after all, the Xtian thing to do, is it not?

    I really would like to see you walk the talk, as it were.

  142. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 5:44 pm

    Sigh. I guess I am going to have to accept that you really did think I meant child molestation. I figured that was just your way of upping the level of vituperation.

    If it is the case that you really believed that, then I do, unreservedly, apologize. But from my perspective, well, it has been hard to believe. When did you lose your trust in the goodness of adults? No matter how old one becomes, you don’t forget the first time you hear an adult rave. I remember vividly as a very small girl the first time I heard adults let loose with really horrible language. It was frightening. I didn’t so much know what the words meant, though I had heard a few of them in the playground and knew they were nasty, No, it was the tone. I will never forget it. Up til then, I had believed that all adults were kindly.

    But forget the libel/slander business. That had no effect beyond amazing me. An anonymous poster cannot be slandered. Insulted yes. Slandered, no.

    RA: What does B above mean? I am not sure what you mean by a link (to what?) rather than a headliner.

    Tenspace: I don’t know if we have met, so to speak, before. So I don’t mind explaining that I am not offended by cuss words. I have occasionally been less than complimentary about the driving skills of some I have encountered on the road. No, my objection is to strings of vulgarities, particularly those that refer to women as whores, cunts, etc. which is sexist bullying. It is meant to intimidate and stifle disagreement. I thank you for the invitation to post in the forums but I find that Hermesten and Viole et al. are right that this is your space and, since you do not invite or welcome debate, I will take my bedrubbed rump out of here and see if I can go offend some grandmothers somewhere.

  143. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 5:49 pm

    Sigh. I guess I am going to have to accept that you really did think I meant child molestation. I figured that was just your way of upping the level of vituperation.

    If it is the case that you really believed that, then I do, unreservedly, apologize. But from my perspective, well, it has been hard to believe. Can you not remember when you lost your trust in the goodness, the stability, the trustworthiness of adults? No matter how old one becomes, you don’t forget the first time you hear an adult rave. I remember vividly as a very small girl the first time I heard adults let loose with really horrible language. It was frightening. I didn’t so much know what the words meant, though I had heard a few of them in the playground and knew they were nasty, No, it was the tone. I will never forget it. Up til then, I had believed that all adults were kindly.

    But forget the libel/slander business. That had no effect beyond amazing me. An anonymous poster cannot be slandered. Insulted yes. Slandered, no.

    RA: What does B above mean? I am not sure what you mean by a link (to what?) rather than a headliner.

    Tenspace: I don’t know if we have met, so to speak, before. So I don’t mind explaining that I am not offended by cuss words. I have occasionally been less than complimentary about the driving skills of some I have encountered on the road. No, my objection is to strings of vulgarities, particularly those that refer to women as whores, cunts, etc. which is sexist bullying. It is meant to intimidate and stifle disagreement. I thank you for the invitation to post in the forums but I find that Hermesten and Viole et al. are right that this is your space and, since you do not invite or welcome debate, I will take my bedrubbed rump out of here and see if I can go offend some grandmothers somewhere.

  144. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 5:52 pm

    Sorry about the double posting. 2nd time it has happened for the same reason: I tried to post and got an error message saying that the page could not be found. So, like a fool, I posted again.

  145. Reluctant Atheist
    October 19th, 2005 @ 6:21 pm

    AB:
    What I meant by a link, is to the website you copy ‘n pasted from. Like http://www.google.com (etc, etc, et al.)
    I have searched the web, couldn’t find anything resembling a retraction.
    Also, valid news source, please. Something that resembles an objective news source (note the operative word here is ‘resembles’, as I don’t trust the media overmuch). Some1 like CNN, for example, or the BBC. Fox or affiliates is unacceptable.
    & I suppose a blanket apology is acceptable, for the nonce. Albeit I’m not the injured party, & cannot speak for them. You should direct it at Choobus & Herm, but that is a humble suggestion only.
    & hey, I’ve double-posted on occasion too.

  146. Tenspace
    October 19th, 2005 @ 6:39 pm

    Ann, it was nice of you to apologize. Yes, sometimes we say things that come across quite differently.

    I do take exception to the comment, “you do not invite or welcome debate” – we do welcome debate in the forums, but we have been experiencing a booming growth, including daily multiple religious rants, either by kids who aren’t very respectful, or overly-zealous believers who don’t care about cited references, and are only interested in telling all of us that we’re going to hell.

    We’ve lost some good theists lately for various reasons, but IMHO, the forums are improving in terms of content.

  147. Ann Boleyn
    October 19th, 2005 @ 6:53 pm

    RA: I got that cite from Lexis-Nexis and can’t link to it because the database is password protected. But it is a dated AP report so I can try to find a site I can link to.

    Since I am feeling unwontedly bad about the whole rant/rave/molestation thing, I will do as you suggest:

    Choobus, even though you, in one of your gentler moments, referred to me in the following way: Daphne’s heretic ass slaying retard cunt mom is essentially a troll, and no doubt a fat borderline retarded corn fed bitch to boot, so the less respect I can show for that cunt the better and that was one of your nicer messages, still, it is apparently possible that you really thought I was saying you would molest, instead of rant in front of an innocent child, so I do apologize.

    Heremesten, I do apologize if you really thought I meant child molestation. To me the context still seems clear that I am talking about ranting and raving but since I might be wrong, apologizing is indisputably the right thing to do.

    RA: I will come back with the link, assuming I can find it.

  148. Viole
    October 19th, 2005 @ 9:12 pm

    Well, Ann, I hope with your apology we can actually start a debate. We do welcome those, so long as you understand that we are right and you are wrong. I also suggest, like Ten, that you stop complaining about our insults and start responding to our arguments. You might find, then, that we’ll argue back instead of insulting you–or at least, as well as insulting you. But some of the insults, at least, will be more witty.

  149. Zed
    October 19th, 2005 @ 9:25 pm

    “Well, Ann, I hope with your apology we can actually start a debate. We do welcome those, so long as you understand that we are right and you are wrong. I also suggest, like Ten, that you stop complaining about our insults and start responding to our arguments. You might find, then, that we’ll argue back instead of insulting you–or at least, as well as insulting you. But some of the insults, at least, will be more witty.”

    You have to admit, Hermesten made an excellent point:

    “When you kiss their ass by treating them with undeserved respect they don’t respect you for your reason, they just think you’re weak.”

    The truth is, there have been some Christians who have come into this room with an aura of arrogance expecting special respect, condescending to Atheists. If they aren’t put in their place as fools, they rarely respect you as even individuals with plenty of good points to make.

  150. Choobus
    October 19th, 2005 @ 10:09 pm

    Am I supposed to be grateful that you now say you did not call me a child molestor?

    guess what? I’m not fucking grateful, I don’t give a toss and everything I had previously said still stands. Screw you and all your godidiot pals.

  151. hermesten
    October 20th, 2005 @ 10:02 am

    Ann, I accept your apology, but I do feel compelled to explain exactly why your contention that you were referring to the use of foul language around children, not molestation, doesn’t wash with me. However, only you know what was truly in your heart when you wrote that remark.

    1. You said 3 year old, not 6 year old or 10 year old. Profanity to a 3 year old who has never heard it before is just words. They have no context in which to place them. A 3 year old will innocently repeat a profanity.

    2. You said “alone in the room with a 3 year old.” If someone is so predisposed to use profanity that they cannot refrain from using it, then then is no reason for specifying that he be “alone” with the child. The use of profanity can take place with the parent or other responsible adult present. The only reason for using the word “alone” is to imply something nefarious being done to the child that could not be done in the presence of a parent or other responsible adult.

    Also, note that I did not call you a “cunt” or even a “bitch.” Nor have I used these terms to describe other female theists. Out of respect for Viole and other rational women posting here, I do not use these words. I’m even reluctant to refer to a male theist as a “pussy” for the same reason. If someone insults me and I am returning the insult, I try to limit the insult to that specific target.

  152. Ann Boleyn
    October 20th, 2005 @ 12:10 pm

    Thank you, Hermesten. It is often hard to strike the right note on the Internet, even when one is calm and careful. I, at least, having been very annoyed, just did not see clearly how my words might be taken.

    It has been hard for me to accept the inference you all drew because, of course, I knew what I meant and because I know that nobody would leave their kid alone with someone they didn’t trust not to hurt her/him, much less with two such.

    Well, as I say, now that I accept that you really did think I meant something worse than I did, I am glad to try to make some sort of amends. I don’t mind standing up for myself firmly but I never, ever want to spew poison.

  153. Choobus
    October 20th, 2005 @ 2:53 pm

    hmmm, well you know it didn’t really occur to me that some of my language might be offensive to those other than the intended recipients. I am in two minds about this, since I am not sure that words per se are offensive, only the context and intent, so whan I refer to certain trolls as, say , cunts, I am certainly not trying to disparage women in general in any way. Nevertheless, intent and result are not always good friends, or even on speaking terms, so I will seriously consider my vocabulary choices. I will apologize in advance to Viole and others if I have in fact offended them, although of course no apologies are intended for Ann due to her… well, just due to her. Hermesten mirrored my thoughts exactly with his list of reasons why I think Ann is lying and desperately trying to backtrack after her hateful child molestation allegation. This is particularly heinous coming from a mother, and as Herm has made clear, her comments just don’t make sense in any other context, no matter what she would like us to believe now.

  154. hermesten
    October 21st, 2005 @ 12:04 am

    Well Choobus, I was going to add (but got lazy) that I understood your intention was for those particular words to apply to a specific person, but I would rather not risk offending someone I am in sympathy with when I cannot be certain about how they will perceive my usage.

    I understand your usage and I agree with you about words. I don’t find any word “offensive,” and furthermore, I think when one allows himself to find a word offensive, it gives power to his “enemies.” Nevertheless, I realize that some words are emotional triggers for some people, and I have to recognize that there are situations –contexts if you will– where I myself may have to act as if I were offended, simply because in such a context, not to act would be interpreted as weakness or subordination.

  155. MBains
    October 21st, 2005 @ 12:02 pm

    Wow! I actually read the majority of this thread the way it evolved was inspiring!

    Human beings can work out anything between themselves non-violently. We just need to be reminded of such areligiously. In other words, rationally.

    Kudos to all.

    By the way on the Shrub-stuff: Abbas can retract anything he wants but it means nothing until our insane president does some retracting of his own statements to the press. THOSE statements have working links supporting their occurrence(s).

    Reality trumps all rhetoric. It doesn’t necessarily take an atheist to see this.

  156. simbol
    October 21st, 2005 @ 2:38 pm

    Hi Herm

    Tell me about new interesting movies

  157. Reluctant Atheist
    October 21st, 2005 @ 3:12 pm

    herm:
    Well said. Words only have the power you give them.

  158. he
    October 21st, 2005 @ 5:09 pm

    “Abbas can retract anything he wants…”

    Forget about Abbas, two or three years ago, the Israeli press reported Bush told Israeli Jews the same thing. According to the Bush criminals everyone in the world, but them, is lying about everything.

  159. hermesten
    October 21st, 2005 @ 5:38 pm

    Simbol, well, I liked Crash quite a bit. I liked the anti-religious “Kingdom of Heaven.” If you want a good romance, I liked the Korean movie “My Sassy Girl” and the American movie “Fever Pitch” (based on a Nick Hornby novel). I also liked “The Door in the Floor” which is based on the book “A Widow for One Year” by John Irving. I liked “Off the Map” quite a bit, as well as “The Upside of Anger.” I found the Chinese movie “Mountain Patrol” pretty interesting (though the DVD I had of it was screwed up and I haven’t seen the whole movie). At the theater I liked “The 40 Year Old Virgin.” Oh, and probably one of the most original movies coming to DVD recently: the Korean movie “Oldboy.” Then there is: “Sin City”, “The Sea Inside,” “Million Dollar Baby,” and “Vera Drake.” I thought “Incident at Loch Ness” was pretty funny, but then humor is a very personal thing.

    Some good older movies for those who are no longer teenagers: Ang Lee’s “The Ice Storm”, “Men With Guns,” “The House of Mirth,” “Crash” (the one by David Cronenberg –also check out “Videodrome”), and the excellent “Wages of Fear” –just released in the US on DVD. Two of the best foreign films of the last few years are the Iranian movies “Crimson Gold” and “The Circle,” both of which I found fascinating.

    I think I already mentioned “Downfall” (Der Untergang), and I can’t remember if I suggested the very cerebral “Primer.” Then I have a long list of newer movies I haven’t managed to watch yet: 3-Iron (Korean), The Holy Girl, Palindromes, Last Life in the Universe, and the Polish move “Kontroll.”

    159 was me.

  160. simbol
    October 21st, 2005 @ 10:43 pm

    Herm

    Thanks. Very good information and I will use it. I saw “The downfall” and I liked it, also The wages of Fear many years ago when the french movie industry had not the inferiority complex it has now. Problem is that my provider, netflix, has not very many independent or foreign films.

  161. Jim
    October 24th, 2005 @ 9:17 pm

    I can’t believe anyone is wasting time on Daphne’s Mom; this is the same retarded troll who actually publically claimed that Muslims *deserved* the Crusades, and then slithered off to other threads when she was called on it, only to repeat the same old “you atheists are vulgar!!!” bullshit, ad nauseum…

  • Basic Assumptions

    First, there is a God.

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