The Raving Theist

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A Modest Proposal

October 24, 2005 | 64 Comments

Cenk Uygur over at the Huffington Post has an interesting theory about Christians, Jews and Muslims. They’re wrong. Fortunately, he sugarcoats his thesis for easy swallowing:

I know most of you don’t actually read your religious texts, and when you do, you assiduously try to avoid the parts that make no sense whatsoever or hide underneath the comforting grasp of your religious leaders who have concocted a bunch of circular logic (a crime to even use that word in regards to Christianity, Islam or Judaism) to shield you from the obvious folly of the written text.

So, I’m not calling you stupid if you haven’t really read the material. And I know how powerful brainwashing is. We all received it when we were young and it is exceedingly difficult to break its grasp. But people dance around the issue out of politeness because they don’t want to call you what you are — ignorant.

There are a lot of people I love dearly and respect wholeheartedly who believe in religion. I hate to do this to them. But we have killed far too many people, wasted far too much time on this nonsense for us to keep going in this direction for fear of offense.

Jesus was a lunatic. God is not coming to your rescue. He hasn’t come to anyone’s rescue in thousands of years, including Jesus. Mohammed was a power hungry, scam artist and ruthless conqueror. Moses and Abraham were figments of the imagination of some long dead rabbi. He would probably laugh his ass off at all of you who still believe the fairytales he made up thousands of years ago. He probably wouldn’t even believe it if you told him.

Did I mention Judaism? The chosen people? Come on, get off it. People walk around in clothes from 18th century Russia, thinking they have been chosen by God when they look like a bunch of jackasses. I’m tired of all the deaths because we did not want to give offense. Orthodox Jews are wrong and ridiculous.

Commenter Rhett, however, has seen through this conservative strategy:


Guess what Cenk — I’m a progressive Democrat and a believing Muslim! My faith informs my attitudes toward social justice, equality and compassion for the weak. Attacking people of faith is a losing proposition, since human beings will be revering Moses, Jesus and Muhammad long after you’ve been forgotten by history. It is the ignorant and bigoted attitudes like these by some atheists on the Left that drives people of faith into the arms of the Republicans.

Over 250 comments and counting . . . go joint the fun!

[Link courtesy of Jennifer]

Comments

64 Responses to “A Modest Proposal”

  1. Rocketman
    October 24th, 2005 @ 3:14 pm

    It’s amazing how tame those exchanges are after a short while reading these indexes. Perhaps someone should get choobus to speak to them.

  2. MBains
    October 24th, 2005 @ 4:26 pm
  3. hermesten
    October 24th, 2005 @ 5:20 pm

    There is absolutely no doubt that religious believers get a free pass because most people are inclined to be polite, but there is also another more important reason: they are in the majority. People have no problem insulting those who have wacky ideas if those wacky ideas are not mainstream wacky ideas.

    If a whole bunch of people believe a baseless, illogical, wacky idea, it is automatically more credible that a completely logical idea that is actually supported by evidence, but not embraced by a majority. This in turn is a product of the same psychology that drives religious belief to begin with: fear. The universe is a scary place and people are naturally afraid; they seek the comfort of the tribe, a comfort that is augmented by the size of the crowd. To be impolite is to stand against the tribe, to defy the ranting crowd, and to sacrifice the comfort of others. This kind of behavior, when carried to its logical conclusion, tends to get one killed.

  4. a different tim
    October 24th, 2005 @ 6:11 pm

    It mainly seems to be atheists backing him up.
    I must say I am heartened that there are so many of us :)

  5. gregg
    October 24th, 2005 @ 11:16 pm

    When people desparately want something to be true it is pointless to argue otherwise. No one wants to be dead, Jesus, Mo, whatever, offer eternal life, more people want than then a free lunch, you have to believe in Ted Kennedy to get that. Attacking religion (god) is like telling a 5 year old there really is no Santa, like kicking a puppy. Save your breath and celebrate your freedom. Sure some will suffer,even die in the name of god or jesus or satan, celebrate you freedom dont be sad, don’t be angry and face it, everyone dies, one day you will too.

  6. Eva
    October 24th, 2005 @ 11:50 pm

    TRA, you are missing the recents comment section of your home page.

  7. Mister Swill
    October 25th, 2005 @ 1:13 am

    The following sentence offends me deeply: “Mohammed was a power hungry, scam artist and ruthless conqueror.”

    That comma does not belong there!

  8. oDd42
    October 25th, 2005 @ 4:10 am

    beautifully written

  9. Zed
    October 25th, 2005 @ 7:22 am

    “Attacking people of faith is a losing proposition, since human beings will be revering Moses, Jesus and Muhammad long after you’ve been forgotten by history. It is the ignorant and bigoted attitudes like these by some atheists on the Left that drives people of faith into the arms of the Republicans.”

    I don’t think it’s a losting proposition. Seems win win to me. The more you have people openly, and confidently criticizing faith-based nuttiness, the more others will be inclined to do the same. It’s not bigoted to criticize an ideology, and freely express this criticism in public. If you feel you with to go with Republicans, because you don’t like being criticized, then by all means enjoy Republicans all you wish, no matter how much it may contradict your political leaning. Saying nothing only because you wish to be nice is self-defeating. It’s worse than being religiously blind, because instead of blindly following the absurdity, you knowingly let it do whatever it wishes only because you willingly make yourself too weak to challenge it.

  10. Bill from INDC
    October 25th, 2005 @ 8:44 am

    At the same time many of those commenters criticize a false, willful delusion of religion, many also espouse political comments – sometimes within the same sentence! – that are as good an example of conventional belief beyond reason as you’ll find in the Bible or Koran. For an example, start with the author’s equivalency between bin Laden and Bush carrying out faith-based war. This is so ignorant of the direction of US foreign policy, given a great deal of pretty objective analysis, that it’s ridiculous. Yet there is no amount of historical perspective, US foreign policy directives, backgrounds and recitations of the many, many individuals and rationales involved in the decision, that will ever convince some of the “believers” otherwise.

    “Bush Lied” is, in it’s own secular way, in the same fervently grasped ballpark as “Jesus Died … and Rose Again.”

  11. jahrta
    October 25th, 2005 @ 9:33 am

    Bill – it’s not just the fact that “Bush lied” that gets to us. We’d be jaw-droppingly ignorant if we believed anything any political figure said at face value. No, it’s the total arrogance and absolute contempt for our collective intelligence with which he carried out the never-ending slew of duplicitous criminal activities throughout his entire career as el presidente that truly riles up atheists, and indeed, anyone else who objectively views the events playing out before them like some surreal 1984-ish political drama.

    The reason I make the distinction on behalf of the atheists is that it is a never-ending source of frustration and disbelief that the same people who got all up in arms over Bill Clinton getting head in the oval office, calling for his impeachment and worse, are the same blindingly ignorant hayseeds who fail to recognize that Bush’s not-so-hidden agenda is actually getting people on both sides of this fracas killed: 2,000 american soldiers and countless iraqi civilian dead, heaped upon the rest of the “insurgents.” No one here really knows how many civilians have been killed so far because people who possess a modicum of intelligence realize that the domestic news sources have been bought and paid for by private interests – so we may never know the actual toll.

    Don’t confuse religious belief and dogma with our political beliefs. You can witness with your own eyes the devastation wrought by this faith-based administration, whereas the god of infinite love they claim to worship has yet to come down from on high to expose these steaming piles of human excrement for what they truly are. Not that it takes a heavenly figure to do so: the republicans, neocons and godidiots will never stop looking the other way when presented with incontrovertible evidence of the destruction they’ve helped bring into this world. Religion is a cancer and the republicans are the ones selling the cigarettes. Keep on puffin’ xian soldier. I would just prefer you keep that second-hand religion away from the rest of us free thinkers.

  12. hermesten
    October 25th, 2005 @ 9:49 am

    “Bush Lied” is, in it’s own secular way, in the same fervently grasped ballpark as “Jesus Died … and Rose Again.”

    Nonsense. The chimp not only demonstrably lied, but lies frequently, as does practically his entire administration. This regime is a travelling Potempkin Village. Now we are even treated to Kay Bailey excusing perjury; certainly a position consistent with keeping Bush gang members out of prison.

    “Bush carrying out faith-based war. This is so ignorant of the direction of US foreign policy, given a great deal of pretty objective analysis, that it’s ridiculous.”

    This remark is just plain dumb and peculiarly uninformed. In the first place, this regime has changed foreign policy on every front in some very critical ways: such as authorizing the first use of nuclear weapons and the use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear powers. This is a major shift from previous US policy.

    In the second place, the regime is run by a gang of draft-dodging thugs who were previously outsiders to US foreign policy, and have written extensively on how this policy should be changed.

    In the third place, at least in my lifetime, the chimp is the most certifiable religious nut ever to hold the office of the president. And even if he doesn’t believe his own BS, his regime’s political base is a gaggle of nutty religious extremists who believe God deeded the Middle East to the Jews, and that the true believers are going to magically float up to heaven in a coming “rapture.” And there is plenty of reason to wonder whether the deranged monkey is trying to speed along the apocalypse, at worst, or is just a useful idiot for the equally vicious, but more rational, neocons.

  13. benjamin
    October 25th, 2005 @ 9:50 am

    A lot of atheists get their panties in a bunch because they think Bush is leading a religious war in the middle east. Or was it about oil? Can you keep your story straight? You might disagree with the war, but don’t blindly believe some conspiracy theory because it makes you feel superior. I for one would have fought the same war in much the same way for completely secular reasons. When the UN shows its inability to act, we must lead by example, and show that there are those in the global community who will not stand by and allow tyranny and crimes against humanity to define an entire region. I only hope that our successes and the positive effect of our efforts can persuade other nations to do the right thing in the future, even when the burden seems large.

  14. jahrta
    October 25th, 2005 @ 10:10 am

    “only hope that our successes and the positive effect of our efforts can persuade other nations to do the right thing in the future, even when the burden seems large.”

    I’m sorry, Benjamin – I just wanted to check to make sure that we’re living on the same planet, under a blue sky and in a universe where the words “successess,” “right thing” and “positive effect” have the same actual meaning.

    Point me to one example of something positive that came out of this ridiculously mismanaged attempt to spread “freedom and democracy” to the people of Iraq. Freedom sure looks a lot like mutilated civilians these days, don’t it?

  15. hermesten
    October 25th, 2005 @ 10:29 am

    “I only hope that our successes and the positive effect of our efforts can persuade other nations to do the right thing in the future, even when the burden seems large.”

    I’m going to assume this last sentence of yours is conclusive evidence that you’re putting us on: not even the fools who implemented this debacle believe anything even remotely this absurd. It’s actually pretty funny if that was your intention. If you’re really serious, then I suggest you watch the movie “Downfall.” You sound like one of those people waiting for their Furher to break out the “secret weapons” and lead them to glorious victory as they huddled in the darkened Furher bunker in their own capital city, surrounded by Russian troops.

  16. benjamin
    October 25th, 2005 @ 10:37 am

    Freedom sure looks a lot like mutilated civilians these days, don’t it?
    No, I would say freedom looks more like an inked thumb.

  17. Viole
    October 25th, 2005 @ 11:21 am

    “It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.”
    -Joseph Stalin

  18. hermesten
    October 25th, 2005 @ 11:29 am

    How appropriate to quote Stalin, Viole, given that, what, the “Iraqi” constitution got up to 99% of the “vote” in some places? Of course, Saddam used to get 99% of the “vote” too. This “democracy” agitprop is strictly designed for US domestic consumption. Only the kind of idiots who think the chimp is a man of integrity can take this nonsense seriously. Anyway, why do the Iraqis need their own constitution? They can just take ours, we’re not using it.

  19. jahrta
    October 25th, 2005 @ 12:45 pm

    “Anyway, why do the Iraqis need their own constitution? They can just take ours, we’re not using it.”

    absolutely fucking hilarious (and at the same time quite sad, given the truth one can find within that statement). If I had been drinking milk at the time I read this, my monitor would have surely been sprayed down.

  20. Byrd
    October 25th, 2005 @ 4:54 pm

    Well done Bill from IMDC! Excellent job of showing that a fair number of “atheists” are as theistic as they come. You gave them an opening and they ran right through it!

  21. Mentis
    October 25th, 2005 @ 5:04 pm

    It’s so sad to what extent our beliefs and values are predermined according to the society in which we are born. If only a newborn could grow up believing what he wanted to rather than what he was taught.

  22. hermesten
    October 25th, 2005 @ 5:27 pm

    Well done Byrd! Excellent job of showing that theists are not influenced by logic or facts, and prefer to rationalize their fantasies, even if they have to take the position that they are no better themselves than what they ridicule.

    Your comment amounts to: 1) the posts of three atheists reflect the position of a “fair number of atheists,” and 2) three atheists are anti-Bush, and since in your opinion there apparently are no “facts” that could possibly justify being anti-Bush, “atheism” is the same as “theism,” and you get to feel better about believing nonsense because you think someone else believes a different kind of nonsense.

    I wonder if this kind of attitude is why the chimp and his minions prefer the idiot defense over telling the truth.

  23. Viole
    October 25th, 2005 @ 5:30 pm

    Who is more credulous, the one who believes everything, or the one who believes nothing. You can either picture Bush as a noble warrior, misled by his advisors, or Bush as a lying sack of dung. Considering that Bush hasn’t done a noble thing in his life, I’ll take the later.

    I’m not the one taking people on blind faith here, thanks.

  24. Dave
    October 25th, 2005 @ 5:37 pm

    I for one would have fought the same war in much the same way for completely secular reasons.

    So, when are you enlisting?

  25. hermesten
    October 25th, 2005 @ 5:43 pm

    Viole, you’re way too kind. “Noble warrior” isn’t an alternative conclusion. Never mind that Bush is a draft-dodger presiding over an admininstration of even more egregious draft-dodgers: a “noble warrior” takes responsibility for his own actions, he doesn’t excuse them with the claim that he was fooled by his advisors. Really, there are only two choices: the chimp is either a lying sack of dung or a depraved idiot.

    For some reason, the evildoers who have coopted the moniker of “conservative” prefer to have their actions characterized as stupid or incompetent instead of deceptive or immoral. They prefer being thought of as idiots instead of liars. The very self-serving nature of this preference is itself evidence that they are lying shit-sacks, and more delusional than stupid.

  26. hermesten
    October 25th, 2005 @ 5:50 pm

    “So, when are you enlisting?”

    As their own repeated public testimony indicates, our brave young Republicans today have more important things to do than fight the wars they champion. Fighting is a dirty business best left to the expendable lower classes. They think themselves way too important to make the ultimate sacrifice –how could their country ever withstand such losses? Besides, you want them to miss the “Rapture?” In any case, since about 1945, our political elites have assiduously avoided getting their hands dirty.

  27. Viole
    October 25th, 2005 @ 9:19 pm

    Oh, aye, Herm, I agree with you completely. I am too nice, and Bush is most definitely not a noble warrior. However, being charitable as I am, I decided to give our Bush apologists something to choose where they could admit the deceits of this administration without also having to admit their president wasn’t exactly a decent guy. Probably a mistake, I admit.

  28. jahrta
    October 26th, 2005 @ 9:45 am

    Viole, Herm

    The republicans will never admit they were wrong about anything. It is not in their nature to be noble, humble, honest or apologetic. The republicans of today are nothing more than criminal thugs hell-bent on spreading an agenda designed to rob all other groups of their individuality and constitutional rights. I think I’ll leave the country before a good old fashioned rhineland style heel-click becomes the fashionable way to greet friends and coleagues.

  29. benjamin
    October 26th, 2005 @ 9:46 am

    So, when are you enlisting?
    I would do less for our military if I enlisted. That’s all I’ll say.

  30. jahrta
    October 26th, 2005 @ 9:48 am

    “I would do less for our military if I enlisted. That’s all I’ll say.”

    why is that? do you do more for the military by promising poor black kids a way out of poverty if they fight for fearless leader?

  31. Jim
    October 26th, 2005 @ 10:25 am

    I would do less for our military if I enlisted. That’s all I’ll say.

    I’m sure every one of our soldiers who is mutilated by an improvised weapon is reassured by your presence as a member of the 101st Fighting Keyboardists, you snivelling coward.

  32. Viole
    October 26th, 2005 @ 10:37 am

    Perhaps you’ve already stuck around too long then, Jahrta.

  33. jahrta
    October 26th, 2005 @ 10:42 am

    Too true, Viole. I think the only reason many of us stay in Amerika is that we hate to just hand it over to people like Bush & Co.

    Anyone up for forming an atheist militia in preparation for the neocon-wrought endtimes?

  34. Hairball
    October 26th, 2005 @ 10:43 am

    Regarding the attacking of believers, I think that it’s important for Atheists to verbally abuse mouthbreathers at every reasonable opportunity. We need to inject a note of sanity into the national discussion, rather than let Those That Hear Voices run the USA any further into the ground.
    For example, I’m retraining from my previous career and going into teaching. I’m working as a housekeeper at a local nursing home, and I engage in a running battle with the nursing staff over their belief in The Dude Who Came Back. Mocking them, pointing out the flaws in their belief system, etc. I’ve gotten a few of them to look at sites such as “jesus never existed” for more info. I collect articles that show xtians doing stupid things, including their opposition to smoking and drinking(most of the nursing staff are heavy smokers and boozers), and this really hits home with them.
    Further, since we get a lot of deaths here, we get a large number of clergy in, mostly Catholics. It’s fun to ask them innocuous questions such as “Have you molested any little boys this week?” Because the place has trouble getting staff(low pay, unpleasant working conditions), I can get away with the insults.(I stay because I can still go to school and work here)
    This week, I’ve started hammering a few of the residents, including one who lost his neighbor, a 97 year old woman that would sit and talk with him. He kept telling me how lonely he was without her, and how he looks forward to seeing her(along with his late wife-Menage a Trois time :)) in heaven. I’ve been telling him that there is no heaven, that she’s now worm food, and to grow up.
    I’ve thought about removing the religious crap from the public areas, but I’m not quite ready to commit theft. Yet. I have dropped off atheistic literature on a few Sunday mornings before the services. If the families don’t like it, I’msosorry ;)
    Cold, but necessary. We atheists have to keep pushing the limits, at every opportunity. Politeness? No frigging way.

  35. hermesten
    October 26th, 2005 @ 10:44 am

    Post #29: Jim — “I would do less for our military if I enlisted. That’s all I’ll say.”

    Ha ha ha ha ha. I love being able to say “I told you so.” My post #26:

    “As their own repeated public testimony indicates, our brave young Republicans today have more important things to do than fight the wars they champion. Fighting is a dirty business best left to the expendable lower classes. They think themselves way too important to make the ultimate sacrifice –how could their country ever withstand such losses?”

    These Christian fascists are sure predictable.

  36. benjamin
    October 26th, 2005 @ 10:51 am

    Before you start the attacks, Hairball, just make sure you actually know something about the person you are going to attack, or else you run the risk of disseminating ignorant fallacies the way jim, jahrta and hermesten have in their attacks on me.

  37. Viole
    October 26th, 2005 @ 10:53 am

    Have you gotten out your Bingo card yet?

  38. hermesten
    October 26th, 2005 @ 11:12 am

    “Too true, Viole. I think the only reason many of us stay in Amerika is that we hate to just hand it over to people like Bush & Co.”

    Actually, if I could go I’d be long gone. I think the problems will be regional in nature. If you live in California, New Hampshire, or New York, you’ll probably be OK, but watch out if you live in someplace like Oklahoma, Kansas, or the South.

    I read the Lewis Lapham article Viole liinked to some time ago. What is really instructive is to read about the Wiemar Republic. Read about how the Nazi’s talked.

    For example, who did the Nazi’s target with their hate? Jews, homosexuals, and communists. Sound familiar? What did they call their political opposition? Traitors, fifth columnists, enemy sympathizers, weaklings, cowards. Sound familiar? Who did they blame for what was wrong with their country? Jews, artists, writers, bohemians, homosexuals, communists, socialists, liberals, external enemies. Substitute “Hollywood” for “Jews” –sound familiar? What did they say about being tolerant and open minded? Your brains fall out if you’re open minded. Sound familiar?

    So, Jharta, an escape plan is a good idea. Of course, it all depends on how it all plays out. This is not Weimar Germany. Whatever path fascism takes here will be a new path. And the neocons aren’t religious. They just consider religion to be a very effective way to herd the cattle. But if you wait too long you may find the borders have been closed (or effectively closed by limiting or preventing asset transfer). Contrary to their normal inclinations, all liberals, progressives, leftists, anarchists, etc, should buy and own guns. Those that stay may need them for self-defense against the Christian fascists.

  39. hermesten
    October 26th, 2005 @ 11:23 am

    Come on Ben, you’ve told us all we need to know. You’re too important to risk your life in combat, you said so yourself when you said: “I would do less for our military if I enlisted. ”

    The clear implication is that you are in some way involved with the military, but in a capacity that keeps you safely off the battlefield. Perhaps an engineer working on a defense project, or some civilian administrator for the Dept. of Defense. This is the standard Republican line. You have more to contribute to our national defense by using your intellect than you could ever contribute on the battlefield. Ha ha ha ha. How convienient for you.

  40. hermesten
    October 26th, 2005 @ 11:36 am

    Does anyone else here long for the days when people like Ben, the people benefiting the most from being an American, felt it was their responsibility to volunteer for military service? In one generation we’ve gone from “elites” with some sense of humility and personal responsibility (Bush Sr. type) to “elites” with a staggering sense of entitlement and self-importance (Bush Jr, Cheney, Ben, et al). Even the British aristocracy feels a responsibility to join their “inferiors” on the battlefield. And these Republican Bible beaters have the gall to talk about the decadence of Hollywood.

  41. Jim
    October 26th, 2005 @ 12:26 pm

    Herm,

    I’m sure that if ol’ Ben even does work in the defense industry, he’s happily cashing checks on a leisurely 9-to-5 workday while designing Cold War weaponry that does absolutely nothing of value for the soldiers fighting a bloody insurgency on the ground in the modern era.

    On the contrary, money grubbing scumbags like Ben are happy to bid as high as possible, sell to both sides, convince politicians their systems are needed while money goes away from soldiers’ basic tactical and human needs, and then go home and harumph about how important it is to send the poor and colored off to fight in foreign lands for “freedom” against the dictators we previously sponsored with our own bloody weapons.

    Fuck all that, and fuck guys like Benjamin and their high horses.

  42. benjamin
    October 26th, 2005 @ 12:33 pm

    Jim and hermesten, you are delusional.

  43. benjamin
    October 26th, 2005 @ 12:37 pm

    Jim and Herm, if you can tell the difference between your delusions and reality, maybe you would like to tell everyone what you have done to help those serving their country on the front lines.

  44. Viole
    October 26th, 2005 @ 1:20 pm

    Not supported the war.

  45. jahrta
    October 26th, 2005 @ 1:48 pm

    Ben

    who are you calling delusional?

    You’re the one who wants us to believe that you’re some sort of indispensible resource for the US military, yet you have time to grace us with your pressence on a blog site.

  46. benjamin
    October 26th, 2005 @ 2:49 pm

    I am calling people who give in to the desire to assume the worst about someone holding an opinion different than their own, and who make up all kinds of stories and accusations when they have next to no information at all delusional. Here, I’ll use another word: bigots!

  47. benjamin
    October 26th, 2005 @ 2:50 pm

    I am calling people who give in to the desire to assume the worst about someone holding an opinion different than their own, and who make up all kinds of stories and accusations when they have next to no information at all delusional. Here, I’ll use another word: bigots!

  48. hermesten
    October 26th, 2005 @ 3:00 pm

    “Jim and hermesten, you are delusional.”

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Guess we really struck a nerve, eh Ben?

    “…maybe you would like to tell everyone what you have done to help those serving their country on the front lines.”

    Actually, I wouldn’t. It’s irrelevant anyway, because I’m not claiming the moral high ground. I’m against the war in Iraq. I’m anti-Bush. I was against the war in Kosovo too (mmm…..let me guess, you were against Clinton’s war, probably called him a draft-doger, but you support the draft -doging Bush and think his wars are just peachy). Besides, anyone can claim anything on here. There was a time in this country when warmongers like you felt compelled to lie about being in the military. You would have been too ashamed to admit you stayed out of uniform. Can anyone even imagine someone from the WWII era talking about the imperative of fighting Hitler, and then bragging about how they were too important to be in combat themselves? I take it as an indication of how depraved our elites are now, that their sense of entitlement and self-importance is so stupendous that they openly speak of how keeping themselves safely at home is such a great benefit to our national security.

    But just for you Ben: I have served in two branches of the US military. I was enlisted in one, and an officer in the other. I didn’t serve in a support capacity either.

  49. hermesten
    October 26th, 2005 @ 3:21 pm

    “I am calling people who give in to the desire to assume the worst about someone holding an opinion different than their own, and who make up all kinds of stories and accusations when they have next to no information at all delusional.”

    You mean, someone like this?

    Ben: “A lot of atheists get their panties in a bunch because they think Bush is leading a religious war in the middle east. Or was it about oil? Can you keep your story straight? You might disagree with the war, but don’t blindly believe some conspiracy theory because it makes you feel superior.”

    Oh, and I kind of like this part too: “people… who make up all kinds of stories and accusations when they have next to no information at all …”

    You must be watching too much Fox news. You’re talking like Scott McClellan. “All kinds of stories and accusations?” What the fuck are you talking about? No one has made up even one story, much less “all kinds”; and the only “accusation” being made is that you’re pro-war but not risking your own life in combat: apparently a fact, and supported by your own statements.

    Ok, ok, I did suggest you were part of the “elite” and I apparently got that wrong. I retract my statement: you’re not part of any “elite.” You’re either a troll, or you’re an……well, I’ll just be polite and let everyone draw their own conclusions.

  50. Jim
    October 26th, 2005 @ 10:54 pm

    Ben:

    How about not supporting an illegal war that sends said troops to their deaths for lies? Or supporting the lying turds that want to send them off to these deaths? Does that count?

    We’ve made up no stories about you; we know from your own statements that you’re not enlisting, and that you’re the worst kind of chickenhawk, the kind of cowardly douchebag that is more than happy to find bloodwork for others but considers himself above the fray.

  51. benjamin
    October 27th, 2005 @ 9:51 am

    Troops are no good if they can’t get where they are going, can’t communicate with each other, don’t have armor, weapons, or vehicles, and no information about their enemy. Their enemy is a lot stronger if they haven’t been bombed. It’s a complicated problem to get a bomb to its target. It’s a complicated problem to move thousands of troops safely in hostile territory. Our troops are much safer and more capable because of the efforts of scientists and engineers. Those scientists you put down for having safe, high paying jobs are doing way more for our military by increasing our technological edge than they could do as an enlisted man. It’s not cowardly to fill the military’s needs in the best way you can. It’s worthless to no nothing but denounce the war.

  52. jahrta
    October 27th, 2005 @ 10:02 am

    Ok, so now you’re a scientist, I guess. Or at least you seem to be telling us you’re someone involved with R&D at some level, maybe working for DARPA or some other agency that provides bombs, armor, medical needs or intel to the troops. Fine – at least you’re finally telling us SOMEthing besides “i’m too important/needed where I am to do the work of a grunt, and that’s all I’ll say.”

    Whenever someone slips in a psuedo-mysterious statement, followed up by “that’s all I’ll say” it just reminds us of theists who defend their belief in god with “because I have faith, and that’s all I need to say.” It was a cop out, but at least you seem to be moving away from that. You could have very simply stated in a previous comment that you work for some agency without endangering the covert nature of your work. You didn’t need to say that you’re working on the Plutonium P38 Space Modulator, Marvin.

  53. hermesten
    October 27th, 2005 @ 10:10 am

    “Those scientists you put down for having safe, high paying jobs are doing way more for our military by increasing our technological edge than they could do as an enlisted man.”

    And there is the added benefit of not dying. Ha ha ha. You’re life is worth more than the life of an “enlisted man” because no “enlisted man” can do as much for our miltary as you can. Again, your sense of entitlement and self-importance is stunning, and I get to say I told you so.

    Rationalize this however you want, the fact remains that your life is not at risk, and because it isn’t, someone else has to put their life on the line. I used to be a Republican, but the gutless chickenhawk motherfuckers calling themselves “conservative” and “Republican” today nauseate me. A real man who championed war, as you do, would put himself in combat, not sit at home making excues about how he was too important to put his own life at risk.

  54. Viole
    October 27th, 2005 @ 10:38 am

    Congrats, Ben, you’ve come up with your first Freeper line.

    I’d really like to know what you expect.

    Shall we die for a cause we do not believe in?

    Shall we buy armor which the government could easily pay for with its bloated military budget?

    Should we manufacture bullets, used to kill people we regard as justified in their struggle? Most of which are innocent even of that?

    Should we invent new weapons, to kill people in greater numbers? Or allow us to kill anyone, anywhere in the world with ease?

    Maybe–get this–we can get our troops out of harm’s way entirely!? Oh, wait, that’s what we’ve been trying to do since the Mexican-American war.

    Take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it up your pompous ass. Not only are you no better than us, you’re helping to perpetuate the violence of imperial capitalism far more than I. Of course, you’ll try to excuse this war, or pretend that America never acts in its own self-interest.

    America that is our country,
    Hallowed be thy name…

  55. jahrta
    October 27th, 2005 @ 10:52 am

    I’d consider moving to canada but it’s only a matter of time before Dubya invades because god told him that the beavers were stockpiling weapons of mass destruction. I bet if you squeeze a beaver hard enough you can get oil out of it, too – a nice added bonus.

  56. Rocketman
    October 27th, 2005 @ 11:22 am

    Oh it will probably be over water and oil.

    Let me perfectly blunt. Your military couldn’t find a diabetic, seven foot tall bone rack who wears a turban and can’t open his mouth without spewing hate and vitriole with his picture on playing cards.

    Invade Canada–I truly don’t think you can possibly understand exactly what would result from that.

    We look like you. We sound like you. We understand the way you think and we sit right on your border.

    I would point out that we expect it, soon. And we are ready.

    Are you?

  57. benjamin
    October 27th, 2005 @ 11:44 am

    A real man who championed war, as you do, would put himself in combat, not sit at home making excues about how he was too important to put his own life at risk.
    You’re wrong, and that’s a stupid concept. An intelligent person serves his cause in the best way he can. You want to get our troops out of Iraq. What are you doing to make that happen? Are you over there filming a documentary revealing the uselessness of the war, in order to sway the opinions of those who make the decisions about wars? Are you there gathering statistics about the war? If I were to follow your logic, the only manly (are you a chauvinist?) thing you could do would be to make yourself a human shield for our troops… anything else would be too safe.

  58. Jim
    October 27th, 2005 @ 12:31 pm

    Ben, the only thing we know for sure is that you bought lies hook, line and sinker; when the lies were exposed you were happy to switch justifications faster than a hooker switches johns; you’re happy to see other men and women go off and die for the profits off the assholes in charge (and, presumably, your own profit-sharing plan); and that you’re simply too ignorant to see the long-term damage that this line of reasoning does not only to our national interests, to the lives of every Iraqi that dies and is mutilated or suffers, but to the Americans who are wounded and die while you happily sit back here harumphing and huffawing about “supporting the troops” while you send them off into more and more bullshit wars of empire.

    You are a disgusting piece of shit.

  59. hermesten
    October 27th, 2005 @ 12:46 pm

    “An intelligent person serves his cause in the best way he can. ”

    Ben, I didn’t say you are stupid. I said you’re a gutless coward who thinks his own life is more important than the life of a man in uniform. Your own statements make this quite clear. It is “intelligent” to let some one do the dying for you, it’s just not moral or courageous. Accept it. You’re a coward, and all your rationalizations to the contrary, anyone who has heard your wimpering excuses, knows it.

    And Ben, if you should ever find yourself in a situation where your wife, or girlfriend, or sister, or mother, is being attacked, make sure you do nothing to stop it, cause you’re just too important to our national security for you to put your life at risk. The same logic applies no matter who the “enemy” is. You can tell yourself how important you are, and how intelligent, and pretend you’re not a coward because running away, or groveling to stay alive, just makes sense.

    “Are you over there filming a documentary revealing the uselessness of the war, in order to sway the opinions of those who make the decisions about wars?”

    Now Ben, you traitor you. How dare you suggest the people making decisions about war don’t know what they’re doing and need someone like me to point out the error of their ways.

  60. benjamin
    October 27th, 2005 @ 12:53 pm

    herm, if you define courage as the opposite of intelligence, you can have it, but at least be consistent… how is operation human shield coming along?

  61. hermesten
    October 27th, 2005 @ 12:58 pm

    Oh, and Ben, cut us a fucking break with this bullshit about applying your intelligence. There is no substitute for experience. If you spent some time in uniform, and in combat, you’d be bringing valuable insight and experience into any development program for the military. Imagine that, a scientist with combat experience. You’d be unique.

    You don’t expect anyone to believe that you’re so fucking important that the risk of losing you outweighs the possible benefits this experience would bring, do you? I somehow doubt our security would be any the worse if you had never existed. Any combat experience you get will be value added.

  62. hermesten
    October 27th, 2005 @ 1:03 pm

    Ben, all your excuses can’t remove the yellow stain. Don’t forget, “consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” –not that I’ve been in any way inconsistent. And Ben, consistency hasn’t made you any less of a sniveling whiny coward.

  63. benjamin
    October 27th, 2005 @ 1:11 pm

    Herm, when science is applied to the battlefield, it’s still science. There are those who write specifications for how something has to operate, and they most definitely can benefit from the experience you suggest. Then there are those who deal exclusively with the science, and they would not benefit from such experience. I’m tired of pointing out obvious things to you, and biting my tongue wishing I could explain the less obvious. It’s frustrating, and you’re not worth it.

  64. hermesten
    October 27th, 2005 @ 3:13 pm

    Ben, I already conceded your point several posts back, even though I’m not entirely convined, given your obvious gullibility and political naivete, about the “intelligent” part: you’re an intelligent coward. Feel better? At least where you are now, the other school kids can’t beat you up anymore, and take your lunch money.

    “I’m tired of pointing out obvious things to you, and biting my tongue wishing I could explain the less obvious. It’s frustrating, and you’re not worth it.”

    You even talk like a spineless wanker. You mean less obvious than your hypocrisy and cowardice? Me thinks thou doth protest too much. You keep coming back for more, and since your whining and feeble self-serving excuses are of dubious value even to your fellow cowards, it must be yourself you’re trying convince.

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