The Raving Theist

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Marbles

September 14, 2005 | 176 Comments

Did I ever mention that I am both (1) anti-abortion and (2) an atheist? A number of bloggers have recently have suggested that the combination is as impossible as being a Jew for Jesus. Hookflash even thinks that The Raving Atheist Has Lost His Marbles:

I had a lot of respect for The Raving Atheist until I read this fundy-style drivel, where he exposes a fatally irrational chink in his hitherto sturdy intellectual armor. Turns out RA is one of those frothing-at-the-mouth anti-choice weirdos who can’t wrap his mind around the patent fact that potentiality is not the same as actuality. Either that, or he’s just trying to be fashionably controversial (I’ve noticed this tendency amongst the more loud-mouthed atheists. Each has his own “pet issue,” on which he holds an absurd position just so he can say, “See, I’m a real freethinker!).

Regardless, the abortion issue is really quite simple: Just as an acorn is not the same as the venerable oak it might one day become, so a fetus is not the same as an adult human being. It may be on its way to becoming an actual, full-fledged human being, with self-awareness, a life project, dependencies and dependents, and, above all, a conscious desire to live, but it’s not there yet. The only conceivable reason to oppose abortion would be if there were some sort of hidden attribute (e.g., a soul) that lent value to an otherwise trivial lump of semi-conscious potentiality. Atheism provides no such attribute.

Hopefully, RA will one day come to his senses and realize that his opposition to abortion is just plain untenable, and totally unbecoming of a supposed “freethinker.”

Lauren of Feministe thinks I’m an undercover priest seeking to convert pro-choicers with faux-godlessness:


R/A: You have successfully hijacked a comment thread* so you can spout your smug assertions about abortion that amount to little more than theist arguments in atheist’s clothing, presumably for nothing more than being a “shank” in a feminist’s side. You’ve based them on something so arbitrary as potential, a game that we could trace all the way back to the beginning of time, and one that we’re not specifically interested in considering you’ve done little more than engage in a “woman, what woman?” theme on a feminist site.

I’m taking a cue from your good friend Dawn Eden by saying that if you don’t have anything to add to the original post, your time here is done.**

And my good friend Dawn Eden — who is, er, a Jew who accepts Jesus, once raised the possibility that I was a stealth pro-choicer cruising for converts to atheism.

The notion that atheism compels a pro-choice position, and that all opposition to abortion is “religious,” is untenable. Were the issue confined to the morality of an elective eighth-month abortion or infanticide, few people would argue that an atheist was required to support such practices or that only the religious could oppose them. The potentiality/actuality question is not a religious one but simply a reframing of the question of when life begins. Lauren’s own Bible — the text of the decision in Roe v Wade — found that question central and, while pretending not to answer it, fixed the state’s interest in the fetus as protectable human life at approximately six months. Liberal-to-moderate Protestants, Jews and others may concur, but that hardly makes the conclusion a religious one.

Tha potentiality/actuality debate arises in other contexts without any suggestion that it must be resolved along atheistic/theistic lines. The execution of juvenile offenders is but one example. Those opposed might argue that a 17 year-old is only “potentially” an adult and should be spared. Those in favor might argue that 17 is “actual” adulthood and death is in order. Abolitionists might argue that the distinction is illusory or that the value of human life in every case overwhelms it. Overtly religious (or non-religious) arguments of course can be made — and are made, on both sides on the issue — but insofar as the potentiality/actuality dispute is concerned I don’t know what it would mean to say that an advocate was employing “theist arguments in atheist’s clothing.”

It is fairly easy, however, to tell when a theistic argument is being raised. For the uninitiated, look for the word “God” and some explanation of why abortion is consistent or inconsistent with His Plan, together with a description of the rewards or punishments for the practice in the afterlife. Once you enter that fantasyland, abandon all hope of a sensible discussion on either side of the issue. The first thing obliterated is the distinction between life and death. Religious pro-lifers will never be able to satisfactorily explain why abortion is bad if an innocent fetus goes to heaven, or if not, why God sends the unborn to hell. Nor will they be able to explain why God slaughtered Egyptian infants on the ground that they were first-born rather than holding the line at conception. Likewise, religious pro-choicers will never be able to explain why it matters what happens to the mother if death in childbirth is merely a one-way ticket to a cosmic Disneyland.

Other theistic arguments involve notions of collective guilt, such as the imputation of Ms. Eden’s beliefs to me. Were I inclined to employ such arguments, I might note that Lauren’s own co-blogger Jill has said that she “happen[s] to believe in God” and has “great respect for religion and its place in the world.” Perhaps one day she will elaborate on her conception of God and His vast relevance to the abortion debate — does she embrace the erudite analysis of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Freedom or the theology of Planned Parenthood’s non-cynically appointed in-house chaplain?*** But right now it might be fair to ask whether Jill’s presence makes Feministe merely a theistic pro-choice sheep in atheist’s clothing, or whether her comments regarding potentiality on my post at Dawn’s blog were disguised theism. Or maybe she’s just a “shank” in the side of feministic atheism. (To her credit, Jill admires “atheist posterboy” Richard Dawkins — if she’s interested, there’s some fascinating commentary by him and at least one pro-life atheist on this DVD).

* Read the comment thread for yourself. I posted a perfectly on-topic comment addressing the contention in Lauren’s original post that “you can’t legislate morality.” Lauren responded to that comment without objecting to its content. The “hijacking” occurred after one of Lauren’s regular commenters asked me point blank for my “justification for forced childbirth, and it was that same commenter who (like Hooklflash) later raised the “potentiality” issue that Lauren finds so theistic. Several other commenters began posing direct questions to me, and it seemed rude not to answer. If Lauren wished to stop the hijacking, she should have asked the questioners to stay on topic rather than suggest that I was responsible for the diversion by merely accommodating their wishes to discuss a particular “theme.”

To her credit, Lauren has since continued permitting me to comment (but I’m still banned by Pandagon and the NARAL-fronted BushvChoice (see history of the latter banning here).

** Dawn Eden has posted a set of posting protocols to keep comments polite and on-topic. Some readers have complained that she enforces them, and bans people, arbitrarily.

*** Religious guest posts are always welcome at TRA.

Comments

176 Responses to “Marbles”

  1. Vernichten
    September 14th, 2005 @ 1:23 pm

    -ad hominem alert-
    Dawn Eden is a condescending blowhard who’s blather-soaked hog anus of a venue is a standing testimony to her ability to squirt out the poorly understood opinions of those who have convinced her of the dietary value of their own excrement, and who’s inability to perceive a world without a hand-holding deity is indicative of the subjective nature of reality and the boundless nature of ignorance.

    RA, are you pro-life? I HADN’T HEARD.

  2. Bill from INDC
    September 14th, 2005 @ 2:01 pm

    This cracks me up:

    The only conceivable reason to oppose abortion would be if there were some sort of hidden attribute

    Well that sort of tells you all you need to know about that mindset right there, doesn’t it?

    I’m an unbeliever and I’m pro-choice, but I fully grasp the fact that the value that an individual places on the starting point for the ultimate value on human life is a subjective ethical determination. In addition, I also recognize that there is an enviable moral consistency to the pro-life position that is necessarily more difficult to communicate in the pro-choice position.

    So, while I disagree with you, I do not have the authority to tell you that your conclusions are empirically wrong, because they are largely personal and subjective, and you also have plenty of solid ground to argue your position from when attempting to work from a logical ethical premise.

    And then there is the above critic – “The only conceivable reason to oppose abortion…” – who apparently is not self-aware enough to recognize the vexing ambiguity of subjective reasoning, especially the thorny reasoning framed within the context of a personal value system.

    Short answer: fuck ‘em.

    PS – I get similar reactions as a heathen pro-choicer who … wait for it … voted for Bush.

  3. a different tim
    September 14th, 2005 @ 2:18 pm

    Also, why is everything on the entire site underlined today? Does RA feel especially emphatic in his views?

  4. paco
    September 14th, 2005 @ 2:23 pm

    I too am an atheiest pro-lifer. However, I feel abortion is also a personal choice with each individual. I feel pro-choice people need to be honest about it, that it is murder. Visit my site to read what else I have to say about it.

  5. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 2:33 pm

    A pro-life atheist. I believe you exist. Your blog is proof of your existence. And I pray you will regain your senses.

  6. gene
    September 14th, 2005 @ 2:41 pm

    As a pro-life atheist, I cannot understand how anyone can rationally arrive at the pro-life position solely through their “God.” If “God” told that person to have (or perform) an abortion, would they do it? Or would the cognitive dissonance be too overwhelming to comply?

  7. Gabriel Mihalache
    September 14th, 2005 @ 2:52 pm

    Litteraly anyone can be pro-choice or anti-choice or pro-whatever or anti-whatever. That doesn’t impresses me. If someone has anything worthwile to add, it will be some form of argumentation, not just saying that he’s one thing or another.

    Just stating your stance is just wasting breath (I’m not talking about the author of this site in particular, but at an entire culture of “hey, look at me, I have an opinion too!”) If you can put forth a novel theory of human nature, some empirical data concerning emotions, cognitions and so on, then please, do write about and I’m going to give you my full attention, but to restart the same old tired discussion without adding qualitative insight is a waste of time.

    Sorry if I’m offending anyone but I really don’t care about your beliefs, practices or intuitions. I’d rather have an argument.

  8. Gabriel Mihalache
    September 14th, 2005 @ 2:52 pm

    Literally anyone can be pro-choice or anti-choice or pro-whatever or anti-whatever. That doesn’t impresses me. If someone has anything worthwhile to add, it will be some form of argumentation, not just saying that he’s one thing or another.

    Just stating your stance is just wasting breath (I’m not talking about the author of this site in particular, but at an entire culture of “hey, look at me, I have an opinion too!”) If you can put forth a novel theory of human nature, some empirical data concerning emotions, cognition and so on, then please, do write about and I’m going to give you my full attention, but to restart the same old tired discussion without adding qualitative insight is a waste of time.

    Sorry if I’m offending anyone but I really don’t care about your beliefs, practices or intuitions. I’d rather have an argument.

  9. franky
    September 14th, 2005 @ 2:52 pm

    on another note: the pledge has been found unconstitutional:
    http://franksatheisticramblings.blogspot.com

  10. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:23 pm

    It would be so much easier to keep the two sides straight if the Anti-choice people could refer to themselves as “Pro Male Life”

  11. benjamin
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:31 pm

    I am so sick of hearing the acorn – oak tree gibberish. The people who spout that nonsense are really confused. We do not value oak trees and humans in the same way. Oak trees don’t have rights. Oak trees are valuable to most people only for what can be made of them and/or the things they provide such as shade and oxygen. We don’t protect people because of the value inherent in the sum of their parts or to maintain their services, nor to save their souls. We protect people from infringement on their rights, such as the right to life. Once a sperm fertilizes an egg, all that is required is proper nutrition, and the proper environment for that fetus to grow into an adult. These are the same requirements of all living people with the legally protected right to life. All people start out helpless (unable to provide themselves with that which they require to survive.) and it is the legal responsibility of the parents to provide these requirements to their children. I don’t see why this can’t be applied to a fetus.

  12. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:35 pm

    Why benjamin, we don’t even need to go that far any more. Each of your cell is now a viable human and I demand that you stop using exfolliants! Damn you, you human cell killer you.

  13. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:37 pm

    I have it on high authority that removing a man’s prostate makes him sterile. I demand that men with prostate cancer keep their prostates. Damn their viciousness, damn them all.

  14. Vernichten
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:40 pm

    reductio ad absurdum: all viably reproductive humans must spend every possible moment in reproduction.

  15. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:41 pm

    Thank you Vernichten. Beautiful.

  16. benjamin
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:43 pm

    Jennifer, do you mean to imply that with the proper nutrition and environment, each one of my cells will grow into a new person? I always assumed cloning was so much more complicated that that. ::rolls eyes:: I think you got your arguments confused. I didn’t mention the information contained in the cell, or the information coming together, I was talking about something actively growing into adulthood.

  17. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:49 pm

    Well, British scientist are combining two eggs into one zygote as we speak…when that technology comes to include the cells inside your cheek, what will your position be then. See benjamin, life started in the primordial soup….all “start points” after that time are arbitrarily chosen. The Pro-Men

  18. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:50 pm

    >>reductio ad absurdum: all viably reproductive humans must spend every possible moment in reproduction.

    Upon what is this statement based?

  19. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 4:55 pm

    Jennifer,
    Once it’s a zygote, by definition it’s a human organism. Prior to that point, it’s not.

  20. benjamin
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:02 pm

    My apologies to anyone with a brain; I am going to have to get very simplistic in order to reach down to Jennifer’s level of understanding, so don’t waste your time with this post. Jennifer, A sperm has the potential, when combined with an egg to create a fetus that given the proper nutrition and environment will grow into adulthood. The sperm itself will not grow into an adult with only nutrition and the proper environment. A scientist can very easily take a sperm and combine it with an egg and create a fetus. A scientist may be able to clone me from a single cell, or combine two eggs and create a fetus. That doesn’t mean that cells, sperms, and eggs are human beings. They all require more than nutrition and the proper environment to create a human. I wont repeat this again, so spend the time to actually understand.

  21. Sean
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:05 pm

    “Why benjamin, we don’t even need to go that far any more. Each of your cell is now a viable human and I demand that you stop using exfolliants! Damn you, you human cell killer you.

    There’s billions more where they came from, and my DNA will be viable for some time after I die, so no use worrying about my exfoliation.

  22. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:12 pm

    benjamin, remember in junior high when eye rolling and condescention won an arguement. Those were the days eh?

    Life does not begin at any point, boys. Its already started and all the rest is rhetoric. I herby declare a sperm a ziggy….a human cell, cept for the fuckin. If a all the prevents a sperm from becoming human is a little humping what kind of a sick bastard would refuse to do such a little thing? Certainly its easier than taking a pregnancy to term.

    You didn’t answer my question about donating blood.

  23. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:14 pm

    On the contrary Sean. Reproducing you is not our goal. Saving lives is our goal…and each cell represents a life. I say death penalty to dermatologists.

  24. Vernichten
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:18 pm

    Steve G. my friend, I am glad to see you.

    “>>reductio ad absurdum: all viably reproductive humans must spend every possible moment in reproduction.

    Upon what is this statement based?”

    If the argument is that when a zygote is destroyed (I love that word), it destroys all the potential, then it follows that if you are not using your reproductive ability to create more humans you are destroying the potential children you could have. All those potential children that never had a chance thanks to you and your slacking.

    “Once it’s a zygote, by definition it’s a human organism. Prior to that point, it’s not.”

    Please don’t be ridiculous. Many animals use zygote cells to reproduce. And, upon what is your statement based? Why is your opinion regarding this issue authoritative?

  25. benjamin
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:22 pm

    We already require parents to keep their children hydrated and fed and at a proper temperature, etc. But just as we don’t require parents to actually provide the care themselves, should they be wealthy enough to be able to pay others to do it, I don’t see why we should require parents to donate their own blood should their child require blood. However, if no appropriate blood were available except for that running through the veins of a parent, I say take it as long as it doesn’t put the parent at risk. Parents were once helpless themselves, and have created new helpless life, and the well being of that life is ultimately their responsibility.

  26. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:24 pm

    >>Life does not begin at any point, boys. Its already started and all the rest is rhetoric.
    At least as far as your paradigm is concerned, this is certainly true, and any delineation is arbitrary. But even under that view, the arbitrary delineation should make some sense, no? The individual human organism called Jennifer began at conception. Prior to that point it was not a human organism. It may have been

  27. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:25 pm

    benjamin, congratulations. You are the first pro-life male I’ve asked that question that didn’t revert to a hypocritical pile of shit right before the eyes of all.

  28. Vernichten
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:28 pm

    Benjamin said:
    “The sperm itself will not grow into an adult with only nutrition and the proper environment.”
    Certainly you must be aware that the egg cell is part of the sperm cell’s environment, and vice versa, until they combine. Therefore, given the right environment (which includes an egg), a sperm will grow into a human.
    I hope I’m not too simplistic to understand your reply.

  29. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:37 pm

    Steve G. my friend, I am glad to see you.

    Thanks! I

  30. Vernichten
    September 14th, 2005 @ 5:52 pm

    You’re right, it was implied that the zygotes were human cells. Sorry, I was wrong. My response was a red herring.
    You are free to have and state your opinion, which I enjoy. It just seemed like you were stating your opinion authoritatively.

    However

    “left unhindered, the natural process will potentially bring the zygote (by definition a human organism by DNA) to a fully mature human organism”

    Left unhindered? Do you mean if its environment is able to provide for its every need without any overt act on the part of the zygote?
    If the environment is right, any living human cell may create another human.
    Can you demonstrate that this statement is false?

  31. Tim
    September 14th, 2005 @ 6:04 pm

    Quick copy and paste job (but it is from something I actually wrote) –
    “But at the end of the day, whether you believe that a collection of cells should be classified as fully human or not, a fetus lives in (and off of) a woman – and if she doesn’t want it there she should have the right to have it removed. I wonder – if such a thing were possible – if any anti abortionists out there would agree to have a fetus transplanted into their own womb from a women who does not want to be pregnant in order to save the live of an unwanted child?”

  32. benjamin
    September 14th, 2005 @ 6:34 pm

    It is not a human trait to require an egg or a sperm to maintain one’s humanity. It is a human trait to require nutrition, an appropriate temperature, etc. Therefore, a sperm is not a human, and an egg is not a human, but a fertilized egg is a human.

  33. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 6:42 pm

    benjamin, you didn’t answer his final question.

  34. Vernichten
    September 14th, 2005 @ 6:50 pm

    “It is not a human trait to require an egg or a sperm to maintain one’s humanity.”
    It is a human trait to require either a sperm cell with an environment that includes an egg cell, or a cloned human cell that requires neither a sperm cell nor an egg cell, and a caring parent figure with a nourishing womb or womb-substitute to maintain one’s humanity. If any of these things are not present, no more potential humanity.

  35. LucyMuff
    September 14th, 2005 @ 7:11 pm

    There be very simple answer to entire problem of abortion: don’t be whore and get married before spreading leg. Obveasly rape victim is different, then abortion ok otherwise get devil child from evil rape, but for slut keep leg closed is answer

  36. Tim
    September 14th, 2005 @ 7:37 pm

    So I guess no married woman would ever have an abortion …?

  37. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 8:24 pm

    Left unhindered? Do you mean if its environment is able to provide for its every need without any overt act on the part of the zygote?

    I mean unhindered in the sense that no outside intervention is introduced to intentionally stop it. As far as the issue of it

  38. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 8:25 pm

    Yes, what of the married woman with 13 children that can’t feed them all? Is the zygote a priority over the 9 month old?

  39. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 8:27 pm

    Is the 15 year old priority over the 9 month old?

  40. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 8:28 pm

    SteveG – because I missed your response. Sorry.

  41. Vernichten
    September 14th, 2005 @ 8:30 pm

    “I wonder – if such a thing were possible – if any anti abortionists out there would agree to have a fetus transplanted into their own womb from a women who does not want to be pregnant in order to save the live of an unwanted child?”

    I doubt it. If they had any courage about their convictions they would all have huge families of adopted children that were unwanted by others. I’m pretty sure that not all of them do, so I guess any that don’t are pretty much hypocrites, eh?

  42. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 8:34 pm

    Actually such a thing is possible. I volunteer RA.

  43. Vernichten
    September 14th, 2005 @ 8:58 pm

    “And when all the conditions are met that such a state exists (as in pregnancy), at that point it becomes a human organism, whether in a womb or a petri-dish…”

    Another opinion? I hope you would never think of imposing your opinion on those who value choice.

    “…intervening to intentionally terminate it

  44. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 9:20 pm

    >>I wonder – if such a thing were possible – if any anti abortionists out there would agree to have a fetus transplanted into their own womb from a women who does not want to be pregnant in order to save the live of an unwanted child?”

    I doubt it. If they had any courage about their convictions they would all have huge families of adopted children that were unwanted by others. I’m pretty sure that not all of them do, so I guess any that don’t are pretty much hypocrites, eh?

    If this were really possible, I can guarantee you that many pro-life people would indeed volunteer for such a thing to save an unwanted child. To the pro-lifer, this is little different than adoption. And while its

  45. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 9:23 pm

    So even within the confines of marraige you only have sex to procreate! That’s harsh Steve G.

  46. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 9:36 pm

    I don’t think you have sufficiently demonstrated that a sperm cell has less value than a zygote, since both are organisms and both require the exertion of outside resources to achieve personhood.

    I am not arguing about value, but about a definition of what a human being is, and that has nothing to do with the undefinable term personhood.

    Certainly, both sperm and zygote are organisms, but then we must ask the question, what kind of organism. By scientific defintion, a zygote is an organism which is an identifiable point in the continuum of a human life. While a relationship between a sperm and the human life exists, it’s not of the same nature. We can in fact say that at each of us at one point was A zygote. We can NOT say that each of us was A sperm. Each of us was formed from the combination of the sperm and egg, but there is not 1 to 1 relationship between sperm and person. This distinction is real. Is it perfect for defining the beginning of a human life? Maybe not. But even from an amoral standpoint, it makes tremendously more sense than picking a point on the identifiable continuum and arbitrarily saying, ‘There, now it’s complex enough to be called human.’

  47. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 9:49 pm

    >>So even within the confines of marraige you only have sex to procreate! That’s harsh Steve G.

    It’s hard for me to give an answer that would be moderately succint that doesn’t sound foolish. I’ll only try to explain the principals I operate from and leave it that.

    Under our (Catholic) ethic, there are clearly two aspects to sexual intercourse. A unitive (bonding), and the procreative(babies). We believe that to protect the beauty and integrity of the act between spouses, violence should not be done to either aspect. It’s not required that one only have sex for procreation. It’s rather required that one not do anything intentional to render the act purposefully sterile. In practical terms, this means that on practical level, a Catholic should always remain open to the possibility of procreation, not that they can only have sex for that intent. I assure you that for practicing Catholics, it’s not a matter of saying ‘Dear, we may only engage in this act for procreative purposes, please don’t enjoy yourself.’ The sex can be just as sweaty, hot and horney as anybody else’s (actually I’ve found sex as a Catholic vastly superior to that when I was a contracepting hedonist), and engaged in for purposes of relief, pleasure, etc. But underlying that is the principal that those two aspects noted above aren’t to be violated (and contraception is but one way of violating the principle).

    Surely you won’t agree with any of this, but hopefully it sheds some light. And far from being harsh, it’s quite a wonderful feeling to be aware of the profound power of sex.

  48. DHA
    September 14th, 2005 @ 10:02 pm

    The idea that athiem requires any belief is crazy.

  49. Jennifer
    September 14th, 2005 @ 10:03 pm

    actually I’ve found sex as a Catholic vastly superior to that when I was a contracepting hedonist

    Perhaps this was the real reason you became a Catholic :-)

  50. Steve G.
    September 14th, 2005 @ 10:06 pm

    I am soooo busted! :-D

    Have a good night, and I assume I’ll see you tomorrow. I gotta go watch ‘Lost’ now!

  51. Hookflash
    September 15th, 2005 @ 5:44 am

    Just for the record, I’m ashamed of the vitriolic tone of my post (although I stand by the potentiality/actuality distinction as being completely relevant to the debate). I must’ve been in a bad mood or something.

    RA, you still have your marbles, my friend, even if you temporarily abandon them on this one issue. ;-)

  52. Paul
    September 15th, 2005 @ 7:48 am

    Steve G wrote:

    This distinction is real. Is it perfect for defining the beginning of a human life? Maybe not. But even from an amoral standpoint, it makes tremendously more sense than picking a point on the identifiable continuum and arbitrarily saying, ‘There, now it’s complex enough to be called human.’

    Except for birth, where the organism becomes separate. That point is not just like any point on the continuum, just like the change from gamete to zygote.

  53. Vernichten
    September 15th, 2005 @ 7:58 am

    “By scientific defintion, a zygote is an organism which is an identifiable point in the continuum of a human life.”

    I missed the part where you proved that a sperm isn’t.

    “While a relationship between a sperm and the human life exists, it’s not of the same nature.”

    They both become humans, given the right environment.

    “We can in fact say that at each of us at one point was A zygote. We can NOT say that each of us was A sperm”

    Until a viable cloned human is created and posts here, we all pretty much started as a sperm cell (or an egg cell, depending on your point of view).

    If you’re going to select an arbitrary point in human development to decide it’s a human, why not pick the point between blastulation and gastrulation? Gastrulation contains the process where the zygote transcribes the RNA. Before that point the cells use Mom’s. It’s also the point when cells differentiate. Why not then, rather than the point where the two reproductive cells meet?
    Why not choose neurulation? It’s the first part of organogenesis where the zygote forms the beginning of its nervous system, as well as some other organs.

    “it’s quite a wonderful feeling to be aware of the profound power of sex.”

    This is funny. Sex doesn’t take power for itself, people give it power. It’s common for the religious to assign a magical nature to sex, since the control of sex is one of religion’s major yokes. The fact that you feel euphoric during sex is the result of a biological process that is not related to religion, except in your mind. That same euphoria can be artificially (and dangerously) induced by drugs as well.

    I guess to sum up, it looks like your argument is that a zygote is more precious than a sperm because it requires slightly less help to become a human.

  54. MBains
    September 15th, 2005 @ 8:14 am

    I decided to just skip reading any comments before writing this. It always – usually enjoyably – distracts me from my main Post comment.

    I love you RA!

    Just wanted to metaphorically suck yer dick* for an excellent presentation of a seriously bizarre Situation. This site is so much better than Situation Comedy or Discovery Channel presentations!

    As far as I have ever read, you are most obviously and rationally atheist. It seems to me reasonable for all those who question this relevant fact to simply accept it. Why it matters is up to the individuals to whom it matters (whatever individual reasons they may create within their own brains.)

    Abortion is an extreme procedure and individuals (necessarily women) who decide to utilize it will best serve their own health by actively pursuing and considering alternatives before it becomes their best option. Often times, for medical and practical reasons, abortion is simply the most moral and efficacious (to the parent’s health – whether emotional or physical) choice. The fact that you, TRA, or anyone is aghast at the idea that your existence is predicated upon another person’s choice on how to use their own body has very little to do with the morality of the procedure. It is their body. Your (everyone’s) right to be conceived and birthed is the choice of the animals conceiving and birthing. If your (anyone’s) conception occurred mistakenly within their body, or if they simply came to a conclusion that your existence was not in their best, most rational interest, then you have no way to prove them again mistaken. You will simply not exist.

    But I’m glad you do.

    * I’d not do it literally even if we safely locked together in a gymnasium shower stall. um, not that there’s anything wrong with that… ;}

  55. Vernichten
    September 15th, 2005 @ 8:40 am

    Steve G.
    “Since I am a 100% wack-job Catholic and follow ALL the ‘stupid’ rules…”

    Sorry Steve, I guess I missed the implications of this statement. Surely you can’t be asserting that you are without sin? Or are you asserting that you follow all of the stupid rules and only some or none of the rules that are not stupid?

  56. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 11:16 am

    Except for birth, where the organism becomes separate. That point is not just like any point on the continuum, just like the change from gamete to zygote.

    I

  57. Rocketman
    September 15th, 2005 @ 11:16 am

    I’m an athiest. Male and completely and totally opposed to abortion. I think its a negation of possibilities and I really believe that it negatively affects society on the whole.

    So, should i ever become preganant I’ll choose to have the child.

    The destruction of possible life or biological slavery is a terrible set of choices.

  58. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 11:48 am

    I missed the part where you proved that a sperm isn’t.

    Can you say that at one point you were A sperm? Can you say that at one point you were A zygote? I think the answer to that question proves that the sperm in and of itself is related to, but not distinctly part of that continuum. A sperm may or may not become a human organism. a zygote IS a human organism. You seem to be focused on potentiality, while I am focused on the reality of what each organism is. A sperm can potentially become part of the continuum of a human life. A zygote has already crossed that threshold.

    They both become humans, given the right envioint

  59. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 11:53 am

    Sorry Steve, I guess I missed the implications of this statement. Surely you can’t be asserting that you are without sin? Or are you asserting that you follow all of the stupid rules and only some or none of the rules that are not stupid?

    Clever. :-) I should have said I ATTEMPT to follow all the stupid rules. I was writing this from the atheist point of view, so I assumed the view is that ALL the rules are stupid. And yes, I attempt to follow all of them, as miserable as I am at doing that.

  60. Vernichten
    September 15th, 2005 @ 12:33 pm

    “Can you say that at one point you were A sperm?”

    Unequivocally. I am without doubt the amalgamation of my parents, which necessitates his one lucky sperm and her unfortunate egg.

    “I admitted that any explanation, in order to be moderately brief, will leave out so much underlying understanding that it could sound foolish. I respectfully ask, please instead of assuming you understand what the statements implies, ask for clarification. Once that

  61. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 1:02 pm

    Unequivocally. I am without doubt the amalgamation of my parents, which necessitates his one lucky sperm and her unfortunate egg.

    Now who

  62. Vernichten
    September 15th, 2005 @ 1:23 pm

    “Thanks! It

  63. tarkovsky
    September 15th, 2005 @ 1:50 pm

    As an atheist, I can make the difference between the absence of God and the existence of lifeforms. Abortion has to do with social conventions of lifeforms. Humans have developed a culture over thousands of years. This culture says: compassion is in order; should a fellow human be in need of help, it is better to help the fellow human than let him/her die/suffer/whatever. This compassion is not a necessary condition; it is a cultural choice, a survival strategy.
    We human insects are just meat, organized atoms with some consciousness. Don’t mix ethics and faith, please. The absence of a God does not justify any absence of ethics; we have the responsability of finding a set of ethics we find reasonable for our proper functioning as a species. RA can have the opinion he wants about ethics, I am very confortable with his position, although I disagree with it.

  64. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 2:06 pm

    It’s funny ’cause it’s true.

    Doesn’t it make you curious that the morality of non-contraception seems to be the most efficient at ensuring that the genes of the non contraceptors are propogated? I may be going to far, but from a survival of the fittest standpoint, isn’t it true that accepting this moral convention could be deemed as more fit? Just curious what your reaction to such thinking would be?

    Regarding the rest, it’s an impasse.
    Agreed.

    Just one more question: What were you before you were a zygote?
    I, as an identifiable human being didn’t exist.

  65. jahrta
    September 15th, 2005 @ 2:13 pm

    SteveG

    Not to get on your case, just out of curiosity…

    when your children grow up and are of a mind to converse with you on a level nearing your own (I don’t know how old you or your children are – has that day already dawned?) will you simply tell them what you believe about the world around you, inferring by connotation and by proxy borne of your relationship with them that they should believe as you do? Or will you instead choose to tell them that there are lots of people out there with lots of different viewpoints and beliefs on religion. Will you tell them about atheists and agnostics?

    As an atheist, I have sworn an oath to my wife that when we have children, I will do my best not to crush any and all interest they may develop in pursuing a spiritual connection to the world around them. I believe, as i’m sure you do with respect to your own, that my view of the world around me is the “correct” one, but I pledged only to tell them what I believe, and my wife will do the same. She’s not an atheist or an agnostic, but rather a “spiritual” person. She was brought up in a religious household – some sect of christianity. I don’t even know which one, actually. The reason I can’t remember is that religion never became an issue for us, remarkable as that may sound.

  66. jahrta
    September 15th, 2005 @ 3:27 pm

    Steve G

    overall I’d have to say you gave some good answers. As a person of faith, you set some good examples for others who are of a similar inclination to worship a god of some sort. I will always be an atheist, but I think that if more religious people adopted your viewpoints as espoused in your posts above, the world in general would be a better place.

    Hopefully those positions will remain the same even if your children decide to embrace atheism or agnosticism. As a former agnostic yourself I think that would be a likely outcome.

    cheers

    -jahrta

  67. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 3:50 pm

    I will always be an atheist, but I think that if more religious people adopted your viewpoints as espoused in your posts above, the world in general would be a better place.

    Thank you for your kind words.
    I do want to say, without meaning to be trite, the views I am espousing are solidly those of Catholicism, and are what I have learned therein. To the extent that somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% or more of Catholics are probably only so for cultural reasons (i.e. Grandpa and Grandma were, Mom and Dad were, so we are), or out of fear and guilt, they are unfortunately missing the deeper meaning of their proclaimed faith, and at the same time creating a false impression to outsiders that those things (guilt, fear, and cultural belief) are what is believed and taught by the Church.

  68. Jennifer
    September 15th, 2005 @ 4:25 pm

    SteveG, if your daughter had been the 11 year old raped by three men in the Superdome, would you want her to have the morning after pill?

  69. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 4:49 pm

    No.

  70. jahrta
    September 15th, 2005 @ 4:50 pm

    what if she said she wanted it? the morning after pill i mean

  71. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 4:53 pm

    I am not sure what your question is. Would I want it for her if she wanted it? Is that what you are asking?

    No.

  72. Jennifer
    September 15th, 2005 @ 5:04 pm

    Wow

  73. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 5:10 pm

    Why wow? The second part of the answer is that we’d embrace the baby into our family with love, do everything we needed to help our daughter heal from the trauma, and try to make love, kindness, healing and hope flourish, where evil and pain are trying to dominate.

  74. sethcoleman@msn.com
    September 15th, 2005 @ 6:56 pm

    “As a pro-life atheist, I cannot understand how anyone can rationally arrive at the pro-life position solely through their “God.” If “God” told that person to have (or perform) an abortion, would they do it? Or would the cognitive dissonance be too overwhelming to comply?”

    You seem to hold the opinion that Christians are robots who do whatever they think God tells them to. If a Christian feels that God is speaking to them, the first thing they are to do is consult the Bible, to see if what they believe they are being told is conducive with scripture. If it is not, then they can be sure the advice was not from God. In the Bible, it commands us not to murder. Since abortion is a form of murder, the act of abortion is against Biblical teaching.

  75. Debbie
    September 15th, 2005 @ 7:01 pm

    Steve,

    Regarding the hypothetical rape of your 11-year old daughter, I would argue that her mental and physical health would be much better served by administering a morning after pill. I would be curious if your wife had the same view as you.

    Personally, as someone who has suffered (unwanted) spontaneous abortions but ultimately had healthy children, I could not imagine the trauma of carrying a foetus created through rape. I believe strict term limits for abortion are appropriate (and think Roe vs. Wade got it about right), but the idea of forcing a child to go through a pregnancy induced by rape is deeply abhorrent to me. If such a foetus was naturally aborted, would you mourn its loss?

    Off the topic somewhat, but … as an apparently sensible Catholic on this site, what is your view on the existence of demons and the necessity of exorcism?

  76. Vernichten
    September 15th, 2005 @ 9:26 pm

    sethcoleman@msn.com said:
    “You seem to hold the opinion that Christians are robots who do whatever they think God tells them to. If a Christian feels that God is speaking to them, the first thing they are to do is consult the Bible, to see if what they believe they are being told is conducive with scripture. If it is not, then they can be sure the advice was not from God. In the Bible, it commands us not to murder. Since abortion is a form of murder, the act of abortion is against Biblical teaching.”

    If you aren’t robots following what you think God wants then why would you scurry to the Bible, which you think is the word of God, to find out what God wants?
    I think you must really be an atheist just trying to make religious people look stupid. It’s a thoughtful gesture, but overall they really don’t need your help.

  77. Steve G.
    September 15th, 2005 @ 10:41 pm

    I would be curious if your wife had the same view as you.

    I only have her word on it, and I am loath to speak on her behalf, but she assures me she does.

    Personally, as someone who has suffered (unwanted) spontaneous abortions but ultimately had healthy children, I could not imagine the trauma of carrying a foetus created through rape.

    I am not sure I follow the relationship between your situation and how that informs your opinion of carrying a fetus created through rape. Could you explain?

    Beyond that, how will terminating the life within serve to undo the horror done? Certainly, it will mask the consequences, but the rape is a fact that no amount of pretending will wipe away. The girl will need to deal with that horror whether the baby lives or not.

    I am not trying to be heartless here. I can only vaguely imagine the trauma such a situation might induce, and I am not trying to trivialize that. But as one operating from a premise that the fetus is in fact a human life, I can

  78. Vernichten
    September 16th, 2005 @ 7:42 am

    “We all come from such different starting points, and so much underlying understanding is absent on both sides, that much of what

  79. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 8:28 am

    I realize the horrible position you’re in, Steve. You’re rational, introspective, curious about reality, and your chosen faith won’t let go of their ridiculous demons and exorcisms. It’s a toughie.

    This statement illustrates exactly what I was referring too. The derision may be educated, but the deeper understanding is missing and much is still lost. I believe in God, which means by definition that I accept the supernatural. Starting from that point, the existence of other created supernatural entities is not much of a stretch. Since you don

  80. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 8:34 am

    somehow my last post got mangled. Please disregard it. The full unmangled version is below.
    —————————————–
    I realize the horrible position you’re in, Steve. You’re rational, introspective, curious about reality, and your chosen faith won’t let go of their ridiculous demons and exorcisms. It’s a toughie.

    But this statement illustrates exactly what I was referring too. The derision may be educated (though more often than not it

  81. jahrta
    September 16th, 2005 @ 9:14 am

    i don’t think an 11 year old has any business being pregnant. period. a girl that young is simply unprepared from any perspective to carry a child or to bear the burden and responsibility of motherhood. even if your answer would be to give the child up for adoption, it would still be an incredibly traumatic event to go through for someone so young, and would most likely have severe ramifications for her future relationships with the opposite sex.

  82. Vernichten
    September 16th, 2005 @ 9:17 am

    “I believe in God, which means, by definition I accept the supernatural. Starting from that point, the existence of other created supernatural entities is not much of a stretch.”

    I meant it was a toughie since it necessarily populates your universe with monsters and spooks, which makes it harder to reach your goals that are firmly planted in reality. Believe me, I fully understand the implications of your false premise. It affects every other aspect of your world. Every action has implications in the spirit world, and every event betokens magical forces. That’s a toughie since they don’t exist, and you can’t influence them or your world using them. But these imaginary forces can influence you and your world using you, which is what will bring us into continual conflict.

    “Personally, I don

  83. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 9:27 am

    Believe me, I fully understand the implications of your false premise.

    Supposed false premise. ;-)

    would then be forced to care for the fetus of a rapist.

    Not necessarily. Adoption is an option. The care might be temporary.

    A nine month to possibly lifetime reminder that you are related to a rapist.

    Now, do you really suppose that this girl will by having an abortion be able to pretend the rape never happened? The lifetime reminder is there in the memory of what has occurred, baby or no baby.

  84. Sperm Defender
    September 16th, 2005 @ 1:02 pm

    There are no humans that did not, at one time, require a sperm or an egg.

    Requiring a sperm and an egg are human traits.

    All humans require a sperm and egg to grow up.

    To draw the line of human-life at fertilization is an arbitrary point.

    Human life is an unbroken chain from parents to child. Sperm can “live” outside the man’s body. It can move on its own, independent of the man’s body. It can sense the egg, on its own.

    It is completely independent.

    It requires an egg to live, whereupon it grows into a completely independent human being.

    Each and ever healthy sperm can do this.

    Some people in this comments section are trying to confuse the facts because they do not want responsibility for their sperm. They insist that the sperm, before fertilization, is a part of their body and that they are free to do with it as they please.

    This is not the case. The lawmakers and courts have a moral responsibility to protect each and every sperm to make sure that it gets the full protection of law.

    It doesn’t matter how many people disagree with me. Even if the country is almost evenly split on this subject, I am so sure of my rightness on this matter that I am going to force millions and millions of men to submit to my morality, and what they believe to be their “reproductive rights” will now be controlled by the state.

    That’s how democracy works, or haven’t you heard?

  85. Sperm Defender
    September 16th, 2005 @ 1:27 pm

    Steve G said, “(A sperm is) an organism certainly, but a human organism?”

    Is it a monkey organism? An elephant organism?

    An ALIEN organism?

    Kooky, Steve. Very very kooky.

    Denying that sperm human is an act of moral relativity equal to denying that fetuses are humans.

    The next thing you’ll be advocating is infanticide. Because just as there is NO MORAL DIFFERENCE between an UNDEVELOPED FETUS and a BABY, there is NO MORAL DIFFERENCE between a SPERM and a FERTILIZED EGG.

    Steve G, you’re a puppy kicking, elderly-life-savings-stealing, baby killer who deserves to be locked up. And I hope they throw away the key.

  86. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 1:51 pm

    I

  87. LucyMuff
    September 16th, 2005 @ 2:05 pm

    sperm defender, why do you defend the sperm? It should be love and happiness for child that you defend, and unless you be fool, you knowe that can be found from JESUS, one true lord and path to happiness for all who acept jesus. Lovers of sperm and self jerking and sinning in the mans bum are goign to hell. Why be fool and choose hell. Choose life, choose JESUS

    JESUS IS LORD

  88. jahrta
    September 16th, 2005 @ 2:28 pm

    LucyTroll

    it’s actually a pity that you don’t believe what you type.

    if you weren’t a troll, you would be the poster child for what religion can do to a mind.

    atheists would love you to pieces and just let you talk your fool head off anytime you wanted.

  89. jahrta
    September 16th, 2005 @ 2:31 pm

    Steve G said this:

    “d. none of the above. It

  90. Vernichten
    September 16th, 2005 @ 2:33 pm

    jahrta, please don’t hurt LuckyMutt’s feelings. She looks to our comments to reaffirm her existence in a world that ignores her otherwise, and she is very sensitive to negative remarks.

  91. Sperm Defender
    September 16th, 2005 @ 2:38 pm

    “At least a delineation based on the different nature of the gamete and the zygote makes some logical sense and is defensible.”

    How is ANY delineation defensible or logical?

    The cycle of life is unbroken. From human to human. From parent to child. There is no point during this cycle that is “inhuman”.

    Because something makes “some logical sense”, you think that’s a reason to allow the mass-murder of billiions of unborn children? The state needs to step in and take custody of your sperm, Steve. And if you resist them, I hope they lock you up for good!

  92. LucyMuff
    September 16th, 2005 @ 2:50 pm

    vernichten, why have you sinned in jahrtas bum many times? you spill you sperm and felch it back, but cannot take back the sin and so burnings in hell for you both, especially after bareback

    JESUS has watched this and cried but still wioll forgive you if you repent, but no more to sin in jahrta fat botty or hell will be home for you

  93. Vernichten
    September 16th, 2005 @ 2:52 pm

    See what I mean?

  94. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:03 pm

    How is ANY delineation defensible or logical?

    Ultimately, from a purely materialistic standpoint, all are arbitrary. I

  95. vernichten
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:13 pm

    The thing about Lucy is, she is really quite brilliant in her lampooning of the trolls we get here.

  96. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:14 pm

    LucyMuff:
    What denomination do you belong too?

  97. Josh Narins
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:23 pm

    I’m an Orthodox, Fundamentalist, Born-Again Atheist.

    Two questions.

    1. Where is a link to what your argument against abortion actually is? The Dawn Patrol thing wasn’t an argument against it, just that the other side of the debate is engaged in some less-than-rational behavior.

    2. In case your argument against abortion doesn’t include it, do you feel that being against it is the same thing as being for it being outlawed? President WJ Clinton’s position was “safe, legal and rare” and although he didn’t change the safety, it did become rarer.

    Interestingly, although it is entirely a non-story in the establishment press (since renamed by the right wingers the “mainstream media”) Bush has stopped the CDC from publishing abortion and teen pregnancy rates since he took office, something they had been doing since the early 1970s (and a little before).

  98. LucyMuff
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:28 pm

    Steve G I am not for putting my denomination out there for sinners and heathens to mock. I believe in the LORD JESUS, and that is all you need know. I also kow that many of you will burn in hell, and I is sad for this because it is not necessary. No matter how much sinning you have done, JESUS will forgive you forgive you for JESUS IS LOVE \

    JESUS IS LORD

  99. jahrta
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:28 pm

    the thing with FakeyFake is you have to wonder if s/he is actually starting to believe what s/he types. the fact that this person invests so much personal energy into maintaining a ruse that everyone has seen through is indicative of the kind of thinking inherent in religious fundamentalists the world over.

    whether or not it’s an accurate depiction of the kind of idiocy spouted by fundies everywhere, it does more to detract from our arguments than to serve as an amusement. besides, i find that the real fundies do a good enough job caricaturizing themselves so they don’t need FakeyFake’s help.

  100. Vernichten
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:29 pm

    I guess masquerading as others is a good example of trolling, eh vernichten?
    Oh well, I guess I can only make a comment now when I have a lengthy argument, so that people will know it’s me.

  101. LucyMuff
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:32 pm

    forget you Jahrta and vernoctin, you are sinning in each other mouth and bum and I have had enouigh of your evil ways. You got to change them or get ready for satan. Also, you make big talk but in fact your have spacious arguments and your logic is round. MAybe you should go back to schoolin before trying to talk so big.

    JESUS IS LORD

  102. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:41 pm

    I also kow that many of you will burn in hell

    Lucy, you

  103. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:51 pm

    Josh:
    1. Where is a link to what your argument against abortion actually is?
    I don

  104. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 3:54 pm

    whether or not it’s an accurate depiction

    I am sad to say it’s way to accurate. Fundamentalism is what actually drove me away from religion altogether for many years. I tend to feel about fundamentalism the way you guys feel about Christianity overall. It’s a fundamentally flawed system that is not even internally consistent.

  105. DamnRight
    September 16th, 2005 @ 4:33 pm

    … it is sad that atheists become so dogmatic about politics & life decisions… believing all atheists must believe as they do… I am an atheist, conservative, pro-lifer… it seems 2-faced to suggest a fetus can be terminatd any time up to full emergence from the birth canal, yet, a pregnant woman murdered is considered, by these same people, as a double-homocide… Lacy/Peterson?…

  106. Josh Narins
    September 16th, 2005 @ 5:02 pm

    Steve G, thanks for sharing, but I was asking The Raving Atheist.

  107. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 5:05 pm

    OK, sorry for the semi-rant. I think the problem was I was having difficulty making sense of the questions, cause I wasn’t sure who they were directed at. apologies.

  108. Lukas Abrhm
    September 16th, 2005 @ 8:07 pm

    i’m anti-abortion and pro-killing babies. how about that.

  109. Steve G.
    September 16th, 2005 @ 9:56 pm

    It makes about as much sense as being pro-abortion. And that’s the point. It makes no sense at all. Either protect both, or you have not case for protecting either.

  110. sternwallow
    September 17th, 2005 @ 1:30 am

    Steve G. Said:”Doesn’t it make you curious that the morality of non-contraception seems to be the most efficient at ensuring that the genes of the non contraceptors are propogated?”

    The evolutionary implications of this may take tens of thousands of years to settle definitively. I am personally willing to participate on the contraception side for as many of those tens or thousands of years as necessary if someone will supply the co-subjects (feminine and hot) and the contraceptives..

  111. sternwallow
    September 17th, 2005 @ 1:30 am

    Steve G. Said:”Doesn’t it make you curious that the morality of non-contraception seems to be the most efficient at ensuring that the genes of the non contraceptors are propogated?”

    The evolutionary implications of this may take tens of thousands of years to settle definitively. I am personally willing to participate on the contraception side for as many of those tens or thousands of years as necessary if someone will supply the co-subjects (feminine and hot) and the contraceptives..

  112. sternwallow
    September 17th, 2005 @ 1:32 am

    Steve G. Said:”Doesn’t it make you curious that the morality of non-contraception seems to be the most efficient at ensuring that the genes of the non contraceptors are propogated?”

    The evolutionary implications of this may take tens of thousands of years to settle definitively. I am personally willing to participate on the contraception side for as many of those tens or thousands of years as necessary if someone will supply the co-subjects (feminine and hot) and the contraceptives..

  113. sternwallow
    September 17th, 2005 @ 1:36 am

    sorry about above multiple post, message didn’t seem to be recording.

  114. sternwallow
    September 17th, 2005 @ 2:06 am

    Steve said: “The cycle of life is unbroken. From human to human. From parent to child. There is no point during this cycle that is “inhuman”.”

    By including the human to human and parent to child link in your unbroken cycle of life, you defined a chain that stretches back in time. Before about 4000 generations ago our ancestors are indeed inhuman. (don’t rag on me for the exact number of generations, that 4000 is an approximation) See Dawkins “The Ancestor’s Tale”

  115. Steve G.
    September 17th, 2005 @ 2:51 pm

    sternwallow:
    the claim…

    “The cycle of life is unbroken. From human to human. From parent to child. There is no point during this cycle that is “inhuman”

    …was not mine. That was the position being argued by someone against me. I probably didn’t make clear that I was quoting someone else’s commen there.

  116. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 11:54 am

    I can comment on abortion, because unlike a lot of people that talk or write about it, men, women who have never had one, women who never have sex with men, I actually had one. I was 18 and I got pregnant, I actually wanted to have that baby, I was living with my much older sister, her husband and kids 1,000 miles away from my home that summer. I remember I had an inkling I was pregnant, I missed my period, I was very tired and I was urinating a lot, I fet off-balanced. I remember one morning I was home alone and I was wearing a zip up robe, I unzipped it and looked in the mirror at my tummy, no way I was showing, I wa very thin and I only missed one period so there was nothing to “see”. But I looked at my tummy and imagined a life growing in there, a little baby, to me, yes, a miracle. I was born to much older parents and I had wanted in my fantasies to be a young mom. I was kind of excited at the prospect of my desire coming true. Well my sister knew something was going on, my behavior was a hint, and she knew the guy I was with, he and I were having a lot of unprotected sex, we were each other’s firsts. Actually one of her bigmouth, nosy friends told her she bet I was pregnant. My sister dragged me to the dr. and I had the pregnancy test, it was positive, she told me I had to get an abortion, I said no. She and my other sister living in another state told me I would kill my parents if I was pregnant. Afterall they had sent me to her because I was a handful for them. So sadly I had the abortion. I can tell you I have lived with the guilt ever since. People will say things like, “Ohhh you were so young and you had no job and you and blah, blah blah.” You know words meant to make me feel like I made the right choice, but no words will ever relieve that guilt I felt and still feel. I remember after that abortion I became, for over a year, obsessed with looking at babies, if there was stroller or carriage I had to go over look in and “see”.

    I tried making myself feel better by thinking, “Hey maybe they took the fetus out and put it in another woman.” that was my guilt-reducing mechanism. And I also used to think, “Maybe I wasn’t pregnant, maybe the dr. and clinic were crooked and just wanted my money.” Again that made me remove the guilt and lay it on “them”.

    Maybe there are woman who get abortions and it does not affect them, they equate it with getting a tooth removed, but I was and am very aware that I allowed a life to be killed that was growing in me. A life that I did not even get a chance to meet.

    Many people like to act like abortion is nothing, no big deal, it’s done early in the fetus’s development, its just a blob of cells, it can’t survive oin it’s own, etc., etc.. Well come on, we are all well aware that those “cells” are human life ,it is how all of us began. You cannot have a human being without those cells forming.

    And ever notice when a woman and/or couple really wants a baby as soon a she finds out that yes she is finally pregnant there is celebration and happiness, even though it is just a “blob of cells”. Right there lets you know we are well aware that that is life growing in there, a new human being that provided all goes well during the pregnancy will soon be among all of us.

    I realize there are necessary times for abortion, like when the mother’s life is at risk, even in cases of rape or incest where it is like a constant reminder for the victim of what happened ( but I am aware there are women who carry the child concieved like that and love that life or give the child up for adoption). But there are also women who have abortions and rue the day they did that. I wonder why so little attention is paid to their pain and guilt.

    And I’m not laying guilt on other women who have had abortions, I feel a tinge of envy that it did not affect them negatively that they do not have depression about their abortions, I think they are lucky.

    But for those of you who have never had an abortion and will never know what it is like, from the moment you set the appointment to the day you pay for it and are lectured on what will take place and you are led onto that table and you lay down with your feet in stirrups and are put under and wake up non-pregnant in a room with other girls and women who had abortions, with blankets over your bodies, and you feel that weird warm ache in your lower belly, you are bleeding and you feel a loss, a genuine sad loss, and in the weeks, months and yes years following you wonder just what that child would had been like, until you have experienced all of that you have no place to talk about abortion, ok?

  117. Vernichten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 1:18 pm

    Wife and I had four miscarriages. I’ll talk about abortion all I fucking want.

  118. Erik
    September 18th, 2005 @ 1:23 pm

    Annick,

    You make exactly the point that has been made on many occasions: that abortion isn’t generally used flippantly. I think most people recognize that, unless they have actually had one, they can only speak from empathy, instead of sympathy. To me, there are two major issues for discussion: (1) Is abortion immoral? and (2) Should it be legal? These are two different questions. I can decry someone’s excessive use of alcohol (a moral reproach) but unless they are driving on public roads, I am not particularly interested in using the force of arms to prevent it (legal consequences).

    What you have so poignantly described underscores the need to have abortion be the result of the informed choice of the mother, irrespective of whether you think that decision is moral or not. I see no benefit at all to bringing the force of the State to bear on people making this choice. On the moral side, I would hope that most people engaged in this discussion readily recognize that there is emotional pain involved and not discount that fact.

    Your approach to the discussion would, if carried to its logical conclusion, reach some pretty odd results. For example, would you then agree that I could not participate in a discussion about the morality of pedophilia, since I have never been the victim of it? Are you suggesting that a legislature shouldn’t pass any laws about anything except by legislators who can prove they have actual personal experience of the issue? And in your actual examples, would you exclude from the discussion a man who has a child whom he loves very much, and that child dies? Isn’t the pain of loss at least comparable, if not worse?

  119. simbol
    September 18th, 2005 @ 6:13 pm

    Annick

    Half of the women who got abortions have one or more kids(http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/national/18abortion.html?). Do you think you know better than them what is abortion?

    Some argue tha there is an option to abortion: to give up the child to adoption. If the child is defective he won’t be adopted. So the woman has to take the risk.

    50% of women who abort, first got pregnant because of failure of the prevention method used.

    I can understand that men be against abortion. Most of then are simply fanatics, other are moralistic, other feel compelled to be consistent, and the rest opine from the comfortable position of not beign required to raise a child. In any case, men don’t have the phisical impact of pregnancy and the social pressure of supporting a child for the next 20 years after birth. Men who do not support their siblings are called irresponsible. when women do the same this is conceived as a crime against nature.

    It’s more dificult for me understanding women who criticize other women when these latter abort. But is my experience that most of the women that have had abortions, don’t criticize and are not against abortion.

    Abortion is a matter of women. Is for them to decide. Is not a matter of males, priests, or government. Let the women, in their privacy to decide what is better for them. YES, for them, not for a zygote. Selfishness? no, I think a child deserves first of all, to be wanted, an then to have a lot of love and all what he needs. So children need to be planned because it is a serious matter, and for that reason they cannot be the consequence of mistakes, or religious or social imbecility.

  120. Annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 7:52 pm

    Well I’d like to write that Vernichten you are one angry, nasty dude. First off your wife had the miscarriage not you, yes you both felt the deep loss, but no way did you feel it like your wife did, no way! It was in her body, not yours. She had the life growing in her womb and sadly she knew when her body rejected that life through the miscarriage, you felt none of the physical symptoms as her and I doubt you felt the deep grief she did since she suffered the loss emotionally as well as physically.

    And do not try to tell me a miscarriage and abortion are the same; a miscarriage is what happens when the body rejects the fetus, often there is something profoundly wrong with the fetus. With an abortion that is by choice and it does not always involve the health or lack thereof of the growing fetus inside, and yes some women are cool with the decision of having an abortion, while others feel intense guilt and remorse. But it totally is by choice that the baby is removed from the mother, a miscarriage definitely has nothing to do with the mother’s decision.

    Now you being a man have absolutely no idea what it feels like to be pregnant, or to miscarry or to have an abortion, or even just have a period, just like I and other women have no idea what it feels like to have a penis or ejaculate or get an erection. I can guess what it is like for a man to be a man, but I have no real firsthand experience, so I certainly could not spew opinions as fact on that topic. Wouldn’t it be odd if I or other women were to tell men that we know exactly what it is like to be masculine or what it feels like to have a penis? Wouldn’t you think we were nuts ( no pun intended)? The sexes are diffrent and have unique feelings and bodies, you do not have a female body, so don’t go running around screaming like you can voice an opinion about something which you have no personal experience such as abortion, when it has nothing to do with your body. And you will never in a million years have an abortion performed on you.

    Your anger is perplexing and disturbing and your rudeness is a huge turn off.

  121. Vernichten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 8:08 pm

    You chose to murder your baby. I didn’t.

    “…I doubt you felt the deep grief she did since she suffered the loss emotionally as well as physically.”

    Fuck off.

    “And do not try to tell me a miscarriage and abortion are the same”

    See above.

  122. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 8:23 pm

    Well Erik I believe pedophilia and abortion have nothing in common. One is a sick crime perpetrated against innocent defenseless children by perverts who have sick sexual desires for children, whereas abortion is the decision to remove a fetus from a woman’s womb thereby ending its life.

    One is all about lust, a sick lust that could not care less how it affects the object of desire, where the other is about convenience the convenience of not having to carry and give birth to a child.

    Everyone agrees pedophilia is an evil act ( except of course some pedophiles that see society as wrong and they and their desires normal). You don’t need to be a victim of that to feel intense anger and repulsion for the perpetrators of it and therefore voice an opinion about it. You don’t need to be a victim of it you just have to look at the beauty and innocence of child and feel sick to your stomach and be filled with rage that some dirty slob has chosen in his or her mind that sexual acts with children are ok. And as that children do not have a voice and certainly no power damn straight people should discuss it and try to think of ways to keep perpetrators away from children and if they do they heinous acts to keep them locked up for life.

    However what I posted was not about the legality of abortion, I never wrote it should be illegal, I merely wrote about my personal experience with it and that I felt, and still do feel, that unless one has had an abortion they have absolutely no idea what it feels like both physically and emotionally. I stated that society turns a blind eye to the women who have had abortions and wish they had not.

    And of course men grieve over the loss of a child I never wrote anywhere that they don’t, but an abortion is a decision the woman lives with for all of her life, it’s her body, her body which is the haven for that life to grow in, her womb where the child is being nourished, it is through her vagina or through a C-section that the child is born out of, it is her body that all those hormones surge throughout the pregnancy and months after, her body that has milk to feed the newborn, and by the same virtue it is her body that she allowed an abortionist to remove that fetus from. So no I do not believe a person who never had an abortion can logically discuss what it is like since they have no idea. Just like I have never given birth so you know I cannot talk about childbirth because I have no idea what it is like. I would never be able to join in on a conversation with moms discussing labor pains or contractions, or breastfeeding, or anything else dealing with fullterm pregnancies and birth, I have no idea what that is like. Just like one who never had an abortion cannot tell me or anyone else what is right or wrong with an abortion.

  123. LucyMuff
    September 18th, 2005 @ 8:46 pm

    annick, yous had better wise up or you are goign to hell. Do you acept JESUS? Defending peadophiles and abortion os wrong, and you must know this some places in yours heart. Stop tying to make what is evil sounds like it’s all ok, or look forward to satan, pitchfork in bum and burining in hell.

    It is not too late, JESUS loves you ans will acept you to him kingdom, but only if yous REPENT

    JESUS IS LORD

  124. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 8:53 pm

    Vernichten you are mentally unbalanced and I can see a total social misfit. It is glaringly obvious you are one of society’s lost souls. Your deep anger toward an online stranger is from society’s rejection of you, you need to lash out at strangers online because you are too wimpy to confront your true foes in your real life.

    You are the person that in the real world no one gives the time of day to. You make no impression on others …someone could talk to you for an hour and 5 minutes later they have forgotten who you are . Go crawl back in your cave you nasty, rude miscreant. You are the typical cyber bully you are so brave hiding behind your computer typing out your venom, ohhhhhh you scare me, whaaaaaaa. You wouldn’t dare say, “Peep” to me or anyone else. Don’t you ever feel fake and impotent at the way you act online?

    If you are married your wife has to either be a saint or deranged to stand lying in a bed next to you, much less sharing a life with a person like you, you are an intolerable, snitty, yes that is spelled with an “n” though the other word does spring to mind, being. Anyhow your wife, if she exists, should be given a medal to be with you and she should look into finding an exorcist for you or earplugs for her!

    You are lucky you are not standing in front of me because I am PMSing and I have a pair of steel toed boots and I also have perfect aim!

  125. LucyMuff
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:01 pm

    annick, are you a lesbian? It be common for lesbos to be wearing boots like that. If you are you must stop lesbianing now and acept JESUS. JESUS IS LORD, and there are no gays in heaven

  126. Vernichten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:11 pm

    Hahaha. Your response is a gift that will make me chuckle all day tomorrow, thanks. But it doesn’t change the fact that you murdered your baby and yet you walk free among society, able to interact with others’ children. Shouldn’t other parents fear you? Physical threats over the internet are not really a sign of a stable mind, right? So you’re a confessed baby-killer AND unstable, and you’re ready to whip out the PMS excuse instantly. Sounds like you are one dangerous individual. Don’t you owe a debt to society for your heinous crime? Or do hand-wringing and maudlin on-line lamenting exonerate you? Too bad people like you don’t wear signs or something. People who murder and then repent, begging others not to make the same “mistake”.

    You aren’t really claiming to be a Christian, are you? How could you possibly define Christianity to include your behavior? Does your penitence allow you to sleep at night?

  127. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:24 pm

    Simbol you wrote “Half the women who had abortions have one or more kids” and you queried, “Do you think you know better than them what is abortion?” I never wrote I knew better than other women. And as far as newspaper articles I always look at them with a skeptical eye since I believe all reporters are biased just like every human being, we all have our own views, so I would suspect the artivcle written by a reporter often has her or his beliefs proven in it.
    But no where did I write anywhere that women should not or should have abortions I merely wrote my experience and I know I am not the only women to feel grief and guilt over having had an abortion ( an aside here Verboring I don’t care if you try to make me feel even worse by your nasty previous remarks, sorry baby you don’t have that power I feel my grief because of my own personal disappooitment in myself, no one gave this burden but myself.)..but like I was writing I wanted to just bring in a personal experience of mine. I do not think it was wrong of me to do that, I actually thought it was good that I waswilling to share this with strangers, but I was not preaching from the pulpit.
    You brought up the stats about who gets abortions and how they got pregnant and their feelings about their abortions. I do not who is taking those polls nor do I know who they are polling so I cannot comment on them. But I am sure there are plenty of women who have no children and get or have had abortions, just like I am sure many were using no B.C. when they got pregnant or even used the B.C. improperly, some womern forget to take their pills or insert their diaphragms improperly and yes some men sneakily slip the condom off before entry or in the middle of coitus when the woman is not likely to know.
    It is interesting that you do not understand women who have abortions yet criticize those who abort. If you were referring to me, I never criticized women who choose to abort, I criticized myself ( another aside Verbatumsnorfest I don’t care about your nasty remarks) anyhow I totally believe we all make choices in life ands we have to live by them, I wish I had made a different choice.

    the women Simbol that you and I know are different, because I know quite a few women who feel and felt awful about their abortions and yes I know women who do not have any remorse, but my post was about those who regret their abortions. I was as amatter of fact sent an e-mail by a very caring person who directed me to websites dealing with post-abortion stress and grief so I doubt I am the only woman feeling this way. It is nice to know that thereare organizations that are there to help women who have depression over their abortions. But I certainly have nerver criticized a woman for having an abortion since that would be cruel since I know how guilty I feel about mine ( Verbatumtheevilone I could not care less what you want to write, pfffft to you!). I would offer them sympathy if they wanted it or I would just listen and not say a word if I felt that would be best, but I would never make them feel miserable.

    Lastly you wrote that children should be planned because that would ensure them recieving love and good guidance…I don’t know if I agree with that because some people may really want children but they are just not good parents, they lack the skills and yes to raise a child takes lots of skills, patience, understanding, insight, tolerance, consistant discipline ( meaning if a child does something naughty you cannot punish them for it one day, say giving them corner time or going to their room and then when they do the same naughty thing the next time you let it slide, that kid is going to be confused) but you need so many tools to be a good parent and you can have tons of love in your heart but if you do not know how to raise children you have failed that child. I actually believe there are many people who should never have children because they just don’t have a clue and they are the ones that create the criminals and bad characters in society.

  128. LucyMuff
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:28 pm

    annick, you be child killer and sinner. You are goign to HELL

    yes, you be headed on highway to satan and hell. Please stop sinning. We will all help you (all true christian I’s mean)

    please don’t be killing babies, and quit lesbo carpet munch, for that be big sin as well.

    have you read bible? It is what you need to change your evil ways and avoid burning in hell

    I will pray for yous

  129. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:35 pm

    Okay LucyMuff, hmmm interesting name…why not Lucytwat or LucyVagina? I can see you are a spoof and yes you have made me chuckle…but no I am sorry I am not a lesbian…hmmm were you secretly hoping?

    No, sorry I love men. I could not imagine never feeling a man’s big warm arms wrapped around me and feeling his slighlty bristly skin kissing me. I am definitely deeply and passionately attracted to men. Steelboot wearing or not.

    Oh and I had no idea that Satan stuck his pitchfork into rectums, I knew aliens enjoyed the anal prodding of our poor unsuspecting hillbillies but to find out that Satan has the same prediliction well that is just awful, next thing you will write is that Vebitchin has been abducted and aliens and Satan have had their way with him :::::dramatic pause here:::::::pleeeeasse tell me it’s true it will make my night sooo much better!

  130. LucyMuff
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:39 pm

    annick, with every workd that is said by yous yous gets more closer to satan and hell. I cannot help yous with prayer if yous will be wanton evil on porpoise, for that be big sin and gets you BURNINGS IN HELL, which is not cool.

    for sake of you soul I ask you in humility and with respectfulness, please stop sinning. Also, love neoghbor and embracw vernicten who is simple but not evil. love thy neighbor, but niot in gay way

  131. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:44 pm

    Ahhh Vermin oops I mean Vernichen your words of love directed at me are making me swoon…ooops no it’s your bad breath doing that! Get rid of the anger and all that sour breath will leave.

    But seriously I can sense this deep attraction you have for me I understand it of course I am quite the charmer so it makessense that you are drawn to me.

    And actually I use my steeltoed boots in the most sensual way to put men like you at ease…I realize you have deep tension and a nicely placed boot tip with a few back and forth rubs can work wonders, it can calm even the most brutish beast.

    Oh and have you ever thought of becoming a grief counselor you really seem perfect for that ..well in hell that is.

    But please do not cease with your words of adoration it would be a shame if you changed your adorable dispostion, hugs and kisses to you…smoooooch!

  132. Vernichten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:48 pm

    annick, you cunt, I expect you lick Lucy’s Muff you fucking baby murdering whore. I think you might want to consider sticking your fucking steel boots up your fat wobbling ass, you obese slut.

  133. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 9:50 pm

    Uh oh if I am getting closer to Satan I’m gonna have to wear gold-plated panties, I sure don’t want to have a pitchfork going where the sun don’t shine! And that ain’t hay!

    Oh LucyMuff how did you know I loved porpoises, but don’t worry not in a gay way.

    And I would embrace Vernichen but I am afraid I will end up with a knife in my back if I do.

  134. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 10:00 pm

    Oh Verbitchenthebutthole no surprise you wrote the “c” word ahhh you are the typical misogynist hiding in his room, typing his crap with one hand, picking his nose with the other…what a surprise. Okay which is it… you were never breastfed? Your first g/f saw your manhood and laughed hysterically and got out the magnifying glass to see exactly what was hanging there? Or is it that women just feel you with such rage because you envy and despise them?

    You are pathetic and gross and vulgar…. I feel soooo sorry for you. Though you are still a vile, filthy pig, but also a sad one. And do us a favor do not reproduce who needs more jerks like you in this world, please stop your gene pool right now…. oh and I think a lot of people have been urinating in your gene pool.

  135. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 10:08 pm

    Oh Vermoron I just realized you called me an obese slut…hahaha!! Yes a size 3/4 or 5/6 depending on the amount of exercising I do, is obese, hahaha honey anytime you want to meet in person and comment on my figure you got it! I bet you’ld pee yourself since you are a scared nasty little boy!

    But you know your love of women is fascinating…I bet you get all the hot chicks huh? You have to what with your sexy personna and your suave ways and your charming disposition.

    Poor baby!!! Anytime you want to meet let’s do it, but in front of the police precinct since a loony tune out of control bozo like you could be capable of anything. And don’t worry I won’t tell anyone you have TWS you know::::whispering here::::: teeny weeny syndrome that will be our little, and I mean very little secret!

  136. simbol
    September 18th, 2005 @ 10:08 pm

    Annick

    My post, in part, was against your tone. It sounded me something like ” I know better than all of you about abortion”

    No more than that against you personally. Let me tell you, besides, that I respect you and I respect you decisions and opinions in this matter.

    My post, for he rest, was also a general opinion on the matter and in fact, has nothing to do with you save in the first paragraph.

    Since I strongly believe that women has the right to decide in this matter and I have not a religious view on abortion, it would be contradictory for me to criticize you for your decision when you was 18, and obviously it was never my intention to make you feel bad. On the contrary.

  137. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 10:30 pm

    Oh Simbol I never meant to imply that you were trying to make me feel bad. I can see just by what you just wrote that you are a considerate person and would not intentionally hurt a stranger. But I certainly was not intending to have my post be some pompous, self-righteous, egotistical diatribe that I know better than others, that was never my desire , it’s just that I have firsthand experience with an abortion so I feel that makes me more qualified to write or speak about it than someone who has never gone through it, and if the truth be known prior to my abortion I was totally for women having abortions I remember being 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 and talking about abortions and my friends and I thought it was a right decision, I even met a very pretty girl who told me and a group of friends how she had an abortion at 13 we all listened wide-eyed and with deep interest, but I was a virgin then and my opinions were based more on what I had read and heard rather than actually knowing what it entailed. I merely wrote my post to give insight into women who have had them and regretted them. I never wrote anything putting women down for their decisions I put myself down.

    I still believe those who have never experienced one have no idea what it is like, before, during and after, so I can’t see how they can weigh in on an opinion with it since they have no idea what it is like. Before I had mine I had no idea what it was like.

    I just wanted to give my experience, but I never even wrote that women should not or should have abortions. Nor did I hope to make women feel guilty about their choices. I just wanted to share my experience. And wow I had no idea that there were going to be nasty remarks written to me simply because I wrote my truth. And I am not writing about you writing the nasty remarks I think it’s obvious who that person (s) is.

  138. Nulli
    September 18th, 2005 @ 10:40 pm

    Yawn!
    Settle down people…
    If you have a penis your opinion on abortion is null and void. Deal with it, argue about it with buddies. I’m male and I know this but it seems there are many males who fire up their own “self worth” attitude on this topic. Since this is a religious trait you appear to have hidden motives wether they exist or not. Also don’t give me the “its my seed too” garbage, you shot it into her and now its no longer yours. If you can’t handle the fact that you don’t have the capability to give birth (or not) then grow up, please! I have no opinion on abortion but I have a lenghty one for males who feel they do.

  139. Vernichten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 10:46 pm

    fuck you Nulli, you are obviously a total prick and you speak out of your bleeding fat arse, so why not just fuck off and stop poking your bulbous nose wher eit doesn’t belong, cocksucker. When you have experienced what I have you might, might, be worth listening to, until then, fuck off and rot craphead asshole

  140. Nulli
    September 18th, 2005 @ 10:51 pm

    Really vermin you shouldn’t be hanging out those male fantasies to dry around here. If you like to suck cock so much why don’t you just go and hit on one of your buddies! You don’t need me to full fill your desires. Kissy kissy big boy!

  141. Vernichten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 10:55 pm

    Yeah, that’s it “nulli” (= asswiipe). You are just a shit stirrer, you don’t know anything about the topic at hand and so you write utter bullshit, and call me a fag. Well, go on big boy, well done, you’ve made a real impression. We are all impressed with your tiny intelect, you fucking asshole.

  142. Nulli
    September 18th, 2005 @ 11:03 pm

    Wow, your stellar intellect with name calling and wanton profanity just shows who the true child is around here. I’ll put you on my list of people who should have been aborted. Reading your previous posts also shows who the REAL shit eater err I mean stirrer is around here. Since you’re straight why don’t you ask Lucytwat out for a date! You two boys seem to have a lot in common, since you appear to be the same people.

  143. Vermichten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 11:06 pm

    Nulli, I am a bit sick of morons like you. You think that you have some sort of right to comment on my life, when in fact you are borderline retarded and horribly ignorant. Just go into a closet and wank yourself to death why don’t you, fuckhead

  144. Nulli
    September 18th, 2005 @ 11:10 pm

    I can just see you now Vermin. Fevorishly waiting for replies since Sept. 14th waiting for someone to comment on a silly little blog. You also probably had the vanity to”subscribe to comments” because hitting Refresh every 60 secs. was to time consuming. But oh you got those women now with your verbal trash, now try getting a life. So you can reply all you want to dis me and call me names, I dont waste MY time with tiny people like you. Go masterbate to make yourself feel important. Bye!

  145. Nulli
    September 18th, 2005 @ 11:12 pm

    Oh~! oh! now I’m a moron and retard! Oh gosh gee I am so offended by your simpleton rash statements! You’re a riot Vermy!

  146. Vermicten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 11:17 pm

    Nulli you spaz, you don’t get it do you? You are supremely stupid, as your posts amply demonstrate. I’m done with you asshole, stop wasting my valuable time. Aren’t you jerking to shemale porn by now, or does your mom let you have the internets in your room? You and annick are imbeciles, and this is the last time I will bother to respond to your idiotic ramblings, you cunts

  147. annick
    September 18th, 2005 @ 11:41 pm

    Vermin you are a sniveling little wimp. You know I had one other hemorrhoid like you call me the “c” word online. Isn’t it interesting that in my real life men are polite, charming and respectful…ok a few can say some kind of naughty things but in a flirty playful way never with the intent to insult me and definitely not with crude language. Geee I wonder why the meanest people I have ever met are from the Internet.

    Funny, when I first came onto message boards, websites, blogs, whatever I expected people to be like me and the people I know in the real world you know normal, fun, interesting, loving and most of all polite, wow after meeting crude slobs like you and the other outcasts that lurk in cyberspace I have realized it’s a whole other universe online and definitely not a pleasant one.

    I seriously cannot believe you feel good about yourself after you behave so boorishly and with such disgusting vulgarities and filthiness, it’s disarming and frankly creepy.

    I just have one final thing to write to you, tonight as you lay in bed and suck your thumb and rub your winkie and drift off into la la land you will have a dream, in it will be a petite blonde, she will be wearing skin tight black pants and a black tight tee-shirt with beautiful red roses on it, she will spy you and call out your name, you will look, she will wave and smile, you will come closer , she will turn her back and slowly peel those pants down to reveal the cutest, roundest, most alabaster smooth skinned bottom you have ever seen, and then she will entice you by swaying it back and forth, she will stop and look over her shoulder and beckon you to come closer, you will eagerly approach you will get within inches of that bodacious booty, she will turn back and bat her big blue eyes at you and giggle and then fart in your face, by the way that will be me letting you know exactly how I feel about you…..be afraid…be verrrry afraid!!!! I’m loading up on the beans and Coke right now! Pfffffffffffft to you!

  148. Vernichten
    September 18th, 2005 @ 11:46 pm

    annick,

    thanks for your fantasy, you cunt whore, but I don’t need it. An obese slut like you makes me want to be gay, so I will leave you with this: suck on my smegma you rancid whore

    sleep well cunt

  149. Real Vernichten
    September 19th, 2005 @ 6:58 am

    From #134 down someone else is using my name. I usually don’t bother with straight-up namecalling.
    I’m not sure what I can do about it.

    Whoever is impersonating me must be pretty proud. It’s clever prose, eh?
    *sigh*

  150. Annick
    September 19th, 2005 @ 9:28 am

    Vernitchen you impotent little poot of a man, I do feel sorry for you in your lonely pathetic existance. See I can go out in the real world and get positive attention just by walking down the street, you I am sure are ignored or shunned. I can go into a store and be treated with respect and dignity and sometimes even get special treatments ( reduction in prices, free little gifts whatever) whereas when you enter a store all the clerks ignore you until you put your sweaty, greasy, smelly fingers on an item then they must decided whether to burn that item or spray it with generous amounts of Lysol and Clorox. I often have men and some women who will just walk up to me and tell me how pretty I look or how nice my figure is or what a great pair of sunglasses or earrings, etc I am wearing, guess what not only do you get no good comments on your looks or apparel or physique, but probably people get indigestion just glancing at you and I’m sure the dry heaves just imagining you in your grungy, brown and yellow stained, sagging crotch, moth hole eaten underwear ewwwwwwww. And Verbitchen I have a nice small circle of close friends and a wider circle of very good aquaintances all of whom must like me because they sure get great big smiles as soon as they see me and some like to hug me tight, now what is the expression people wear when confronted by you? Oh I bet it looks similiar to the expression one wears when they discover they have stepped into dog’s doo and can’t get it off their heel no matter how hard they scrape on the sidewalk. And touching you? Hmm I would surmise that people first put on a thick padded parka, zipped up and oven mitts just to walk past you for fear there might be body brushing as they pass by. And dear Verbitchin I don’t need to ever come back online again since I actually have contact with the outer world I do it for pure pleasure, which thank you you have given none, whereas you in your totally unsuccessful, miserable, loser existance you need to be online otherwise you would have zero contact with other humans. Oh and in closing just remember what you put out there you get back, even if you put on this demented personna as a goof it is still a part of you and you are treating a stranger and strangers with the most vile crude behavior imaginable, so honey guess what, all this negative energy you have put out here and all your filthy words that you have vomited onto the screen, and all your nauseatingly gross insult, well darling it will all come back to you when you least exoect it and will bite you squarely in your pimply, saggy, uneven, hairy butt, but hmmm come to think of it you would like that since I’m sure that would be the closest thing to any kind of sexual pleasure you have or ever will feel. So pfffffft to you again. Have a great day!! Ooops that was cruel of me, you are incapable of that. Go crawl back into your toilet and flush twice to make sure you stay down there for good!!!!

  151. Real Vernichten
    September 19th, 2005 @ 11:14 am

    Disclaimer: Someone is obviously using my name and any post by me should be suspect.

    I do however, think there’s a possibility that annick is pretty self-righteous for an admitted baby-killer.

    So annick, don’t bother getting all frothy about this, you’re bitching at someone who is just loving the attention he/she gets. Unfortunately, it ain’t me. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind watching you rant, but it’s got to be getting boring for you and others.

  152. Erik
    September 19th, 2005 @ 11:45 am

    annick,

    Well, I’m glad to have missed out on all the vitriol. Let me get back to your reply to my response.

    I can understand that pedophilia and abortion are two different things, but I don’t think the difference actually helps your analysis that much. It may be somehow intuitively obvious that pedophilia is a bad thing, but it is too facile to say that pedophilia is reviled because it is disgusting; that is almost circular reasoning. Rather, pedophilia is rightly reviled because it causes a demonstrable pain, physically and emotionally, to its victims. We don’t concern ourselves so much with what the pedophile thinks as much as how he acts, so the focus is where it should be, that is, the effect on the victims. Now, to make that judgment, we have to understand what the effect on the victims actually is. So again, I have to take it on the evidence of others, since I was never a victim of it. Your analysis of the abortion issue would, if applied to pedophilia, preclude my participation in a discussion of pedophilia because you are effectively discounting the notion that you can ever learn from the actual evidence unless you experience it yourself.

    In any discussion of the morality of any act, of course the person with actual experience has a lot of influence. But there probably isn’t a single one of us who has experienced everything in this world. Let’s take another example. Say, hypothetically, you and I are discussing the morality of the death penalty. (I don’t know you position on it, so this is just for illustration purposes.) You argue that the death penalty is (at least in part) defensible because the family of the victim then doesn’t have the pain of knowing that the killer is still alive while their loved one is dead. I counter with the evidence that the families of victims in cases where the killer was actually put to death don’t generally feel any relief at all. Assume for argument’s sake that neither you nor I have had a loved one who was murdered. Are we then simply making noise? Are we to just shutup about the issue? I don’t really see the benefit of that approach.

    If your point is to admonish the readers here that they cannot really speak to the effect of an abortion on the women who have had them, that’s OK. I agree with your view of that effect. You arrived there by actual experience; since I can never do that, I have to get there by evaluating the evidence. If you say “You haven’t had the experience, therefore shutup”, then nothing happens. If you say “You haven’t had the experience, let me correct you”, now we’re getting somewhere.

    One last point: you may have had the experience, but how can you be certain that every other woman (or even most of them) has the same experience? By evaluating what they say in the context of your knowledge. All of us do that every day on a great variety of issues.

  153. annick
    September 19th, 2005 @ 1:55 pm

    Now the Real Vernichen if you and the other Vernichen are not one and the same that would be amazing since you both have the same attitude, energy and miserable disposition.

    You must be the self-righteous one, I read one time that the insults and aspersions that others cast upon people are often reflections of their own personality flaws. You just could not resist coming to me could you? I wonder what compelled you to not only come to me, but insult me and then keep repeating your filthy words and your rude insults. Yes I insulted you but you know a person can only take so much when they need to give back.

    By the way does it excite you to hide behind your monitor and call a woman a filthy name? A name that you know most women revile? Are you one of those men? Are you an obsessed individual? Is it difficult for you to resist certain people online? You must be, since you made written contact with me first and stomped and cursed like a bad little boy with no manners and no friends, simply because I wrote a story.

    And hmm you are mighty judgemental aren’t you? You can read a person’s true story then decide you need to not only use filthy language but you need to personally insult and attack them over and over for what they wrote and then you have the audacity to decree that they are pious or self-righteous? Are you serious? I’m guessing that is your defense mechanism popping up since society is probably very mean to you, so you get into attack mode before they can start verbally assaulting and degrading you, I genuininely feel sadness for you because you are so miserable and lost and somewhat delusional in the sense that you need to use different names to get your voice heard, I guess you also lack self esteem and true conviction to your thoughts since you need to use that ruse. It is sad, but enlightening and I am so surprised that you are willing to reveal your huge character flaws like this on a public forum.

    And your written attacks calling me “baby-killer” shows you are just the vilest form of human being there is, one without any consideration for another’s feelings, you lack the ability to connect with strangers thereby you cannot possibly have any empathy and sympathy with them. Your disgusting behavior also reveals that you have a hole where your soul should be. Or in layman’s terms you are without that part of the brain that knows right from wrong and tries to always do the right thing. You really need some kind of therapy to deal with your intense anger and hatred, I only tell you this because it is a well-known fact that negative emotions can alter your body’s chemistry and immune system setting one up for all kinds of disorders and diseases, perhaps a therapist can get to the root of your anger and cruelness and remove it before it causes permanent damage to your psyche and body. You may want to go to a cardiologist to see if you have heart disease because you are one very disturbed dude, maybe you are missing a valve or your have plaque in your arteries because something just ain’t right with you. Maybe even just a good enema will help I bet with your butt-clenching anger you are all stopped up!

    Oh and remember you you avowed that you would not respond to me anymore, where is that promise? Will you be able to resist me and not write anything further? And anh, anh, anh, no using a new name to attack me, no, just do not respond, can you do it? That will be a big step for you, can you or can’t you, hmmmmmm.

  154. a different tim
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:04 pm

    Annick. I have had some very long (and probably tedious to outsiders) discussions with Vernichten, I don’t think the guy doing all the swearing and personal insults is actually him. It isn’t his style.

    Lucy. I think Annick is a Christian and certainly has some regrets over the abortion. It’s telling Dawn Eden she’s going to hell all over again isn’t it? If you’re sending the Christians to hell too you definitely have a problem.

    Now that’s sorted out:

    Annick again. In answer to your original question. Not OK. Yes, you have experience, but the rest of us can discuss what we like. It’s like saying you can’t criticise the government reaction to Katrina unless you were personally drowned in New Orleans, or you can’t discuss Iraq unless you have personally been blown up by a roadside bomb. It’s a silly assertion.

    I assume from your tone that you are “pro life” – should GWB, all those Christian male preachers, and the male supreme court justices who may overturn Roe v Wade also shut up? Or just people who you disagree with? If the former, then at least you are consistent and I do, in fact, have some sympathy for your viewpoint and am prepared to concede to you a certain amount of authority. If the latter you are just trying to morally blackmail your political opponents into silence using your dead fetus as ammunition. Which is it to be?

  155. Real Vernichten
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:07 pm

    My God annick, baby killer, do you have nothing better to do with your sad life? Look at your long posts, it’s as though you were some sort of pathetic fool whose life was so empty all she could do was eat potato chips and wtite long drawn out fantasies about being pretty and popular. I pity you. It would not surprise me to learn that you are really a 400 lb shut in and poking your stubby fingers on a special tubbs keyboard was the only access you had to the outside world (apart from your fast food deliveries of course. Perhaps you blow the pizza boy for extra cheese, but then he is so disgusted by your fat carcass that he can’t get hard for you, which makes you cry and eat. It’s a nasty circle you’rew trapped in. Did this all start following depression brought on my murdering your child, you fat cunt?

  156. Steve G.
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:15 pm

    Annick. I have had some very long (and probably tedious to outsiders) discussions with Vernichten, I don’t think the guy doing all the swearing and personal insults is actually him. It isn’t his style.

    I want to add my agreement here. I am on the total opposite side of the spectrum from Vernichten, but I can

  157. Vernichten?
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:15 pm

    Disclaimer: Any post by “Vernichten” may be an impostor.

    I’ve got the doppelganger beat. I will simply post anonymously. My argument will be enough.

  158. Steve G.
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:19 pm

    BTW, before that name dissappears, I’ve wondered from the beggining what the signifance of that monikor are?

  159. Vernichten
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:25 pm

    Steve G.:
    “BTW, before that name dissappears, I’ve wondered from the beggining what the signifance of that monikor are?”

    Why don’t you tell him, Impostor? That’s okay, I’ll save you the trouble.

    I am a genuine Nihilist, and Vernichten is German for Destroy.

  160. Vernichten
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:34 pm

    a different tim:
    “Annick. I have had some very long (and probably tedious to outsiders) discussions with Vernichten, I don’t think the guy doing all the swearing and personal insults is actually him. It isn’t his style.”

    Some little bit of it IS me, responding to ridiculous arrogance and self-righteousness. But most of it isn’t. Thanks for the support guys.

    VERNICHTEN OUT-

  161. Annick
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:40 pm

    I believe “disgusting” is a perfect way to describe pedophilia and pedophiles and the idea that it is a disgusting act is the main reason it is reviled. If you were to ask 100 people what they thought of pedophilia and pedophiles they would undoubtedly mention the word “disgusting”. And of course we all agree it is an action that has many lasting negative results on its victims, I never said it did not.

    I truly believe that we do concern ourselves with what the pedophile thinks, since their desires start as a thought, then an action, just like anything in life we do does. And to prove this further, psychiatrists and therapists try to get into the minds of pedophiles to change their abherrant behavior through all kinds of therapies, that is the only way to get a person to change a behavior, through thought altering techniques and therapies. You need to change their thoughts to change the behavior.

    But again I believe you are comparing apples and oranges, one is a crime, an unnatural sexual desire committed against an unwilling victim, whereas the other is a choice a choice that usually one woman makes concerning her body and that is the only right since she is the only one carrying the child.

    I can understand how you bring up the death penality and stating that people can voice opinions about it without being directly associated with it, but then again the death penalty does effect all of us in the sense that the people locked up and sentenced to die are a threat to society, they are unwilling or unable to stop harming others, so we the people have the right to be protected from murderers by whatever means possible, now even if the criminal is not put to death we all agree he needs to be locked up for the betterment and safety of all of us. With abortion that is a private thing and it effects no one but the woman having it done, the fetus and yes the father of the baby to a certain extent, but it all comes down to the woman since it is happening to her body not the father’s.

    I simply feel that someone who has had an abortion knows exactly what happens to her body, mind and soul, others can only voice an opinion, but they don’t know anything about it if they did not have it done to their body.There is no way they know what a woman is feeling and thinking, perhaps some women try to ignore their feelings and don’t tell anyone what they think or thought about it, maybe that is to keep themselves sane.

    And I never meant that others with opinions should shut up, I meant others who never had one and feel they know what it is like and therefore can tell other women if they should or should not have one should shut up so to speak. How on earth can one talk about abortion, the pros and cons, if they have no idea what it is and how it feels before and after it?

    I never wrote that every woman who had an abortion had the same experience as me, I simply wrote a personal account. I do know that there are women like me that regret it, just like there are women who don’t have regrets, my point was to not state that abortion is a good or bad thing, but it was to state that you are unable to know what it is like until you have had one, and that yes there are women who suffer after their abortions, why is that such a bad thing to write? Are you or others implying that women like me have no right to express our feelings and tell our experience. I never once said women should or should not have abortions, I even wrote I felt envy toward those that can get one and walk away like nothing happened, that must be great to never feel sad or have guilt.

    Oh and thank you for being articulate and mature and not stooping to the level of a third grade playground bully like I have seen others or maybe just one do on here, I applaud you for your dignity. I believe you are totally allowed your opinions and so am I , but since I had an abortion I can relate a firsthand experience so it is right there for others to understand, rather than just giving my thoughts on the subject without really knowing what its like. And I had no inkling I would be attacked for my story, if I had known I guess I would not had shared I did not know immature bullies would do that. I guess I learned.

  162. a different tim
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:44 pm

    I think she’s smoking crack.

    Judging by her posts on some other threads, she has moved beyond Jesus and now we don’t get into heaven unless we believe in Mr T.

    Not sure you are a genuine Nihilist, actual real Vernichten. You care too much about truth and rational argument. Concern for truth is a moral value. Sorry. Plus, unlike the imposter, you can be bothered to spell, which denotes a very un-nihilistic respect for an arbitrary social convention.

    BTW if I start swearing randomly, it isn’t me. If I start swearing non-randomly, it probably is.

  163. a different tim
    September 19th, 2005 @ 2:46 pm

    Sorry. Annick writing when I was “I think she’s smoking crack” referred to Steve’s comment about Lucy.

  164. Anonymous
    September 19th, 2005 @ 3:16 pm

    There may be another possibility a different tim. I wrote a paper on this, actually, but I don’t have the digital version.

    A nihilist can appear to be something else while continuing to believe in nihilism, all in the effort to achieve the only goal that he feels has any value: eradication of all goals and values. It may take generations, but the goal, if not forgotten, is always lying under the surface, smoldering.

    I understand the argument that a nihilist with a goal is no nihilist, and I guess I can’t really refute it.

  165. annick
    September 19th, 2005 @ 3:28 pm

    Well Tim the two Vernichtens must have been separated at birth because they sure reek of the same stench.

    And I thought Lucy was Vernuchten’s third personality in the guise of a some-what dim-witted Christian girl.

    You know all of you write under so many names it is hard to keep track.

    You can discuss whatever you like I never disputed that, but unless you have personally experienced a certain thing you really cannot give factual evidence to the pros and cons of said topic, no you can only give thoughts. So therefore you cannot deem a thing as good or bad unless you know what it entails.
    With Katrina that was a huge natural disaster that effected everyone how could it not when the media turned it into a 24 hour horror show for all to witness complete with half-truths, inuenndos and outright lies, I bet they are so disappointed that the predicted 10, 000 dead did not happen, I know they were hoping. Just like they sure loved placing blame on the Federal government yet, hmmm ignoring the mayor and governor’s actions..like all those buses just sitting there, they could not get those buses up and running to rescue the infirm and poor, or having a place of refuge from the storm with no water, no food, very little security and no running toilets , at the very least they could had had buckets rather than people being forced to deficate and urinate on the floor like animals. Hmmm does not sound like their elected officials did right by their citizens. Interesting here in NY when we had those horrific attacks on the WTC gee isn’t it amazing they were able to rescue and evacuate as many people as they did and that with no advance warning , unlike the 3 day warnings LA had? Hmmm I wonder how come NYC could do such a great job but N.O failed, gee I wonder why, oh I know George Bush, yes that’s it, sure! Isn’t he to blame for everything? It’s amazing the power and evil one man and one political party wield.

    But back to topic I merely stated that unless you have an abortion how can you possibly discuss the pros and cons of it? For instance what would you think if I or any woman started telling you all about a vasectomy, how it feels, what will be done, your emotions you may feel about it , would you think I could possibly know? Would you seriously take my opinion to heart and believe I knew what I was talking about?

    I never wrote I was pro-life or pro abortion all I did was write about my experience; did I ever write, “No one can have abortions.” or did I ever infer “If you have an abortion you are wrong.” no I gave my personal experience and did not bring politics into this. Honestly I believe whatever a woman chooses to do is her right, I just gave a personal account, now why on earth does that offend and disturb you and others that think like you? How on earth does that effect your life? Are you implying I have no right to my opinions based on my real experience? That is mighty hypocritical and judgemental to boot, it is almost like you would have loved me to have written that I had an abortion and I was thrilled and that I did a jig afterward and threw a huge bash to celebrate my wonderful achievement.

    Now with your sentence in your last paragraph, “…using your dead fetus as ammunition.” you are vulgar, low, nasty, a very rude, unfeeling person. Do you like and respect women? If so your words prove you wrong! Wow, could you possibly be any ruder you show you lack class, you lack dignity, you lack manners, you lack basic consideration for a fellow person..

    I realize that in your mind you feel that since you are anonymous you can write anything you want to a stranger without any forethought of how those words effect the reader, but it shows me that you have very few if any friends since no one in their right mind would ever want to associate with such a mean-spirited person as you, or you are a fake person who writes your meaness online but in real life you would never dare say such a vile thing to a woman, either way is pathetic.

    You know I know a lot of people in my life and I often tell them about my encounters online and they all act surprised by the rudeness but they always say the same thing that the rotten onliners are insecure people, bullies that are brave when hidden behind their monitor. I totally feel sorry for any women that you will ever be intimate with and I don’t even mean sexually, I mean just in a friendship because you are so low and hurtful that any poor woman that knows you will be sorry she ever met you. How on earth do you live with yourself? How can you write that to a stranger that did nothing at all to you? Are you just so lost that you cannot behave normally and morally? You are sooo sad! But reading your garbage shows me why I am so glad I am who I am, eeek to have your lot in life that must be awful.

  166. LucyMuff
    September 19th, 2005 @ 3:37 pm

    anick, god will forgive you for abortion, god forgives for everything, but you have to be sorry, you have to repent. JESUS is LOVE

  167. Anonymous
    September 19th, 2005 @ 3:37 pm

    Apparently, adopting another point of view from Annick’s indicates unforgivable villainy. That’s often true of people who are impervious to new info, and it’s also often true, sadly, of people who claim Christianity and become vicious when confronted on their views.

  168. annick
    September 19th, 2005 @ 3:53 pm

    Oh Verbitchinichininthebutt I knew you couldn’t resist me, you do have OCD don’t you?

    Gee I am so sorry that my posts are not shorter but why do you bother to look at them, oh so you can call me fat and other words? I’ll try to make this one a wee bit shorter I realize anything that is written longer than the directions on a shampoo bottle makes your brain go, “owwwey” so I’ll try to be considerate.

    First off I realize I give you far too much attention, this is probably the most attention any woman has ever given you, so you can thank me later.

    Now of course I eat potato chips :::::crunch crunch crunch crunch:::: myhggy nyyfrgihgh oops sorry I was eating, talking and typing at the same time. And of course you would know I am a 400 pound shut in with stubby fingers because that is the kind of women you date and love and speaking of such I think you and I can let everyone know that our wedding is in three weeks, can you feel the love? Everyone’s invited!!!

    But I need to know honeybuns is our hot-tubbing date still on for Saturday. That was so much fun the last time you and I squeezed into that built in pool and you farted to make the bubbles, you are so talented who would had guessed that that pool could hold me and you with your 590 pound hunka hunka burning love body? Ohhh baby when you whipped out those two inches, well after you and I lifted your rolls of fat, what was it 20 or 25 rolls. oh I forget, but to find it ohhh baby I was so excited!! I took off my hammock thong, remember how excited I was and you, you sniffed it for 15 minutes and then you put it on, though you could only get it as far up as your knees, but it was still hot!

    And about blowing the pizza guy, I thought you did not want anyone to know about that , well now that it and you are out so to speak, let’s be honest, that was you that blew him, I merely sat on him to hold him still. Remember? And don’t you recall you kept asking for extra cheese and something about “that’s one tasy pepporoni pzza boy!” Remember? Come on I have it all on tape, you racally guy you.

    Oh and you used the “c” word again I bet that gave you a nice big, err, average, err little, ummm tiny erection. And don’t worry I really do think it’s not the size of the ship it’s the motion of the ocean.

    Write back soon and please don’t forget to call me a c**t, you romantic devil you!

  169. vernicten
    September 19th, 2005 @ 4:03 pm

    annick, you in a hot tub! Hmm, that seems like a good idea, but I can’t get a crane at such short notice, and you would probably want to cook some lobsters because you need to eat almost constantly.

    It is obvious now that you are a troll, probably a spotty teenage boy sitting in mom’s basement. If onlly your mother had wanted to kill you the way you profess to have killed your own baby. I won’t call you a c@#$ because it’s a bit unfair to actual c@#$%.

  170. Christlove
    September 19th, 2005 @ 4:11 pm

    Hello all. I usually just read what is written here but I wanted to just make a comment about some of the truly hateful things I have just read. Are you all atheists? Is this sort of personal attack typical? I know Christains can also be horrible to each other, but I have been on a lot of Christian sites and I have never seen anything like this. Is this personal? Why are you doing this to each other? What possible gain can there be?
    respectfully,

    anon

  171. Annick
    September 19th, 2005 @ 4:12 pm

    Oh anonymnous is this one of you brave boys using yet another handle to prove your point, one on one debating or actually in here one on one baiting, is far too strenuous for you boys isn’t it. Gee maybe I’ll get some fake names too, sounds like fun. How about “TubbytheTubaGal”? Or “C**T”? since those seem to be your favorite pet names for me.

    And Anonymous, you keen guy you, you read me perfectly, yep if you disagree with my opinion you are wrong, yep I mean look at how I have told so many that…ooops no I haven’t I actually have been told that by all of you… interesting, see I think you boys with your various handles just are confusing yourselves. Let me write this in simple terms that you will understand…I wrote about my abortion, about my regrets and that I can give a better opinion and truer reaction to an abortion because I actually had one. I would never tell any woman to or not to get an abortion, that is her decision, I merely stated that yes there are women like me that regret our choice, ok was that clear enough? Was it to judgemental or pious?

    And I am sorry to disappoint my many admirers, but sadly I must leave I need to go outside and the crane is here to get me out of the house, shhhh Vernichen lied, he wanted to protect me I actually weight 1500 pounds and he weighs close to 2000. So I need to go, the crane operator is winking oops I mean beckoning me to the window. Kisses to all of you, what… no… please all you boys stop crying I’ll be back yes I promise please you are breaking my heart seeing all those red eyes and noses and streaks of tears down your cheeks. Bye sweet lovely boys! Ahhh your Moms should all be so proud that they brought you up so well! Toootles!! Smooch smooch!

  172. Anonymous
    September 19th, 2005 @ 4:23 pm

    Oh, annick, please don’t go away mad….
    One final ad hominem, sweetie:
    “Ahhh your Moms should all be so proud that they brought you up so well!”

    Yes, thanks Mom, for not terminating me. That would have been monstrous and unforgivable.
    Annick, your argument was crap, your quickness to viciousness betrays you as unforgiving, your exploitation of your past actions is despicable, and your belief that no one understands your pain is laughable.
    Oprah might be interested, though.

  173. jahrta
    September 19th, 2005 @ 4:53 pm

    Christlove:

    Most of the people here – i’d say a good 75 percent of the posters here are atheists, based upon what i’ve read. It is not AT ALL common for a true atheist to resort to ad hominem attacks. the reason i say this is because most of the atheists i’ve read on here have spent a great deal of time and thought examing their own beliefs, as well as the very nature of belief. They are generally well-read and speak eloquently on a large number of topics. People who have reached this level of conversation realize that it only serves to weaken their arguments when they resort to stringing together random expletives and passing it off as a post. this type of puerile and utterly pointless rambling usually spouts forth from – oddly enough – religious fundamentalists. Not to say that I haven’t seen an atheist mouth off in a sophomoric fashion, but it’s usually under provocation. we do it when we realize that the person or people we’re arguing with are going out of their way to avoid logic at all costs, and we give up on trying to get across our points.

    if this is your first time visiting the blog, this is not indicative of the norm. you should look up some of the past discussion threads to get a better sense of what TRA is all about.

  174. jahrta
    September 19th, 2005 @ 4:59 pm

    annick – why do you waste so much time and energy responding to someone who is obviously just trying to screw with your head? Also, why do you care what a room full of strangers thinks of your physical attributes? it’s not like we know you or have ever seen a picture of you. anyone who calls you ugly or fat or whatever is clearly operating under a “yo mama’s so fat” mentality. the only problem is that when you respond in kind, it makes you look just as dumb. don’t rise to the occasion.

  175. Erik
    September 19th, 2005 @ 5:44 pm

    annick,

    For purposes of discussing morality, we have to decide what our goals are with morals and whether a particular act furthers or hinders those goals. (And just to reiterate, I am generally in agreement on your view of abortion as a private matter.) What we are talking about here is process, and I think we’ve probably spent too much time on it, because I understand that you don’t really intend to shut people up about it. More of a rhetorical shutup. I have probably said something similar a time or two to believers who were discussing atheism.

    I would never suggest that you should not tell your story. People with actual experiences have a lot to add, so by no means am I implying that it’s a bad thing. Quite the contrary. What I meant was this: You started with the notion that, to understand the discussion of the morality of abortion, you have to know what the effect is on the woman going through it. I get that, but how am I to decide? You related your experience, but if yours was a unique experience (and I am not suggesting that it is; I happen to think it is predominant but I have no proof) then why would the morality of it be dependent on your experience? How does one go about establishing an understanding by which the morality of it can be judged? Should you take a huge sampling of women who have had abortions and set your moral compass on the issue based on what the majority says?

    I don’t think people were attacking you for telling your story (although I have deliberately skipped over a post or two here) but rather for the notion that you have to have had an experience in order to express an opinion about it. Men, in particular, sometimes feel like they have been broadsided when a long thread continues about abortion and then suddenly someone jumps in and thumps them for even talking about it. It has happened on this site and others.

  176. PG
    October 5th, 2005 @ 8:30 pm

    RA,
    Out of curiosity, do you think the sperm and egg become a person as soon as they are united? Should reproductive health clinics that produce unused embryos be prosecuted for murder?

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