Alcoholics
May 21, 2004 | 18 Comments
Submitted by Emily
Is a non-believer who develops a relationship with a”higher power” for the purpose of being permitted to remain in Alcoholics Anonymous still an atheist — where AA permits the “higher power to be defined as “his sense of a benevolent universe” or the AA group itself?
May 21st, 2004 @ 11:28 am
Building a relationship with a higher power does not affect ones atheism provided that higher power is not a God. There are many “higher powers” in life, your parents, your teachers, the school bully, your Boss, the President, The Queen, Government in general, a Police officer the list goes on I don’t see how having a relationship with any of these people would change your opinion about God.
May 21st, 2004 @ 8:23 pm
or the AA group itself?
Of course not. But (wink, wink) only Jesus can save you from the bottle.
May 21st, 2004 @ 8:24 pm
…whoops, I answered that wrong. Take out the “not”.
May 26th, 2004 @ 11:56 am
Nope. The definition excludes that possibility by including the term “benevolent”. This human characterization of the universe is precisely the thing atheists should cast off for good. It’s like referring to the “fury” of a storm, or the “merciless” pounding of waves. Nice poetry, misleading analogy.
May 28th, 2004 @ 8:37 am
REDFRED said: Building a relationship with a higher power does not affect ones atheism provided that higher power is not a God. There are many “higher powers” in life, your parents, your teachers, the school bully, your Boss, the President, The Queen, Government in general, a Police officer the list goes on . . .
It might not affect your atheism in the sense that it won’t cause you to suddenly believe in a deity. But the entire point, in AA, of believing in a “higher power”, is that you admit that it, and only it, has power over your life, can “remove your shortcomings,” can cause you to stop drinking, and that you will live in accordance with your higher power’s will. If you believe that about the Queen, a police officer, or anything else, you might still be an atheist, but you’re a freaking loon.
June 7th, 2004 @ 3:34 am
The higher power should come within. You are your own universe and you are the one that is in control of your destiny. The most important thing is to believe in yourself, and be your own “god”
(Sorry to get new agey on everyone)
June 7th, 2004 @ 10:11 am
If faced with the issue of a “higher power” that groups such as AA, NA, or Al-Anon mention, my reply, if asked would be the higher power consists of intellect, coping mechanisms, and survival instincts developed during millions of years of evolution. Not a living, thinking, and invisible sky buddy.
June 7th, 2004 @ 11:58 am
Of course, if someone needs AA, there’s something lacking in his or her intellect, coping mechanisms, or survival instincts. But believing in an imaginary sky buddy hardly constitutes an improvement.
June 10th, 2004 @ 1:44 pm
Emily, Don’t let highly intellectual, cold, and robotic answers lead you. Go where your head and heart leads you. There’s only one like it.
June 11th, 2004 @ 9:59 am
no
June 16th, 2004 @ 9:17 pm
A non-believer who subscribed to a broad, abstract concept of a higher power to reap the benefits of the AA program could indeed still be considered an athiest; however, if the person had Existentialist tendencies, as many non-believers do, then he or she would not be able to agree with that most fundamental tenet of the AA ideology.
June 17th, 2004 @ 12:15 am
Pure grace, Grace.
June 17th, 2004 @ 10:51 am
Grace,
What exactly is an “abstract concept of a higher power”? What is the purpose of subscribing to it? I mean, it is patently obvious to everyone that there are entities in the universe of substantially greater power than us puny humans. If the sun went nova, it would wipe us out easy, nothing we could do about it, and there are many stars much bigger than the sun. Certainly, sun worship is not the concept that AA is after.
So what “concept” would the atheist “subscribe” to, other than one that implies some order and plan to the universe? And how can one possibly include the word “benevolent” without importing human characteristics? Isn’t this precisely what we atheists reject, barring proof? Subscribing to a concept of a higher power is thus a matter of faith, which is generally what distinguishes believers from atheists. If the question posed by Emily correctly defines the policy at AA (”sense of a benevolent universe”) then no atheist can subscribe to this and still be an atheist.
June 25th, 2004 @ 4:16 pm
There are no requirements for AA membership other than a desire to stop drinking. So it’s not even a valid question: no one has to do anything in order to be “permitted” to remain an AA member. Especially since developing a relationship (or believing in) any concept of any higher power is not necessary to get or remain sober.
How do I know this? I’ve been an AA member for 12 years, never for a second believed in an hp (whether a god, the group, or the doorknob), no slips, no problems. You can’t be thrown out of AA by anybody for any reason.
June 26th, 2004 @ 1:20 am
The question of AA and atheism is complex, to say the least. As an atheist looking for advice in stopping drinking, I attended many (well over the 90 in 90 days some speak of) AA meetings. I also did library and internet research on the subject.
My conclusion was that atheism and AA simply do not mix. Sure, they won’t “kick you out” – indeed there was an atheist in my local group who had been going for years (”I only take five of the twelve steps…”) – but they can make it so uncomfortable as you may as well kick yourself out.
They pray at the end of the meeting, and when you don’t participate, it does not go unnoticed. One guy in my group wrote me an “affirmation” with the cadence of the Lord’s Prayer he thought I might feel better reciting as we all held hands with heads bowed. And the promise that you can make your HP a doorknob if you see fit is a bait-and-switch, as someone stated above, it makes little sense to surrender yourself and your wellbeing to a doorknob. And even if they call it an HP, they don’t try to pretend that HP is anything other than God, usually Jesus in particular.
Off topic (even more) There is a blatant church-state issue in the court ordered AA Meeting attendance for drinking related crimes.
There are many support groups, and much information on addiction strategy for freethinkers. Personally, I wouldn’t recommend AA to anyone who isn’t already a pretty devout xian.
June 26th, 2004 @ 3:03 pm
AA & atheism just don’t mix for YOU, Rabidrobot. It’s been my experience that you take what you need and leave the rest — and, I’m by far just one of many atheists attending meetings around here (Connecticut).
Also, I’ve found that the reaction of the group is more a matter of one’s own perception than reality. Remember when you went to your first party sober and realized that nobody gave a damn whether you were drinking alcohol or not? It’s the same deal in AA with regards to belief in a deity. And isn’t it interesting that your fellow group member didn’t want YOU to feel uncomfortable, so took the trouble to write a chant for you. I suspect it was because you acted put out and bothered by the chant at the end rather than anyone in the group caring one way or the other that you did or did not participate.
As far as recommending AA and there being alternatives out there, there just aren’t that many, especially if you’re not located in an urban center. When someone is dying of alcoholism, does it really matter if the group is god-centered or doorknob-centered, or does it matter more that by participating for however long it takes, you can stop drinking and save your life. The desperate don’t have time to sort out the various options — they need help right away (oh, dear, I hate brown, so I won’t get in THAT lifeboat — is there a red one available???) If you’re dying, who cares what anyone else things as long as you can get the help you need? I decided I could sort the god stuff out later — and found that I didn’t even need to.
June 30th, 2004 @ 4:14 pm
Of course experiences will vary, but I stand by my assertion that most AA members do care about whether or not you believe.
It is a valid point that not all areas will have existing support groups with meetings to physically attend (other than the ubiquitous AA). And if AA is all you got, it may be better than nothing. But I strongly encourage anyone dealing with these issues to do their own research on alternatives to and criticisms of AA.
As far as taking what I want, leaving the rest – sorting out the god stuff, as you put it. I found that, in my experiences, there was precious little discussion, advice, or support that wasn’t hedged with the assumption that god, or whatever you call your HP, was deeply involved. Once you sort out the god stuff, there’s not much of anything left to “take what you want” from.
I’m glad AA has helped people. I may even admit it helped me a bit. But it is an institution firmly intertwined with Christianity, and athiests, with rare exception, will reject the vast majority of AA philosophy.
July 5th, 2004 @ 7:44 pm
Been sober in AA for 30 years. Been an atheist for a lot longer than that. Just ignored the god talk and got sober. I know I’m right so why argue? I was there to save my ass, not my soul.
Try to find some meetings more to your liking. Let demographics guide your search; educated, higher-income people are more likely to be at least freethinkers so go to meetings in wealthier areas or around colleges. Call the central group in your area for help. There are AA atheist meetings around, at one time Seattle had five. Washington DC has one.
Get to know people, you are sure to find kindred spirits. If you can’t find a meeting that meets your specifications, start one. Try to find a sponsor who shares your beliefs.